tech or not?

[kbilla]

had a situation the other night, varsity boys game, 3-man mechanics..team A hits a shot with 3.7 seconds left, i am lead transitioning to new trail, i immediately look up and see the team B coach jumping up and down with his hands over his head and i see him mouth the words "time-out" (extremely loud, so i could not hear the words). so i come out and kill the clock. the clock had run down under a second. i come over and my partner asks what i have, i say i have a timeout white, we're putting 3.7 seconds back on. his response.."white is out of timeouts". immediately the coach comes over and pleads that he was yelling to his team "no timeouts" because he had been informed by U2 that he was out of timeouts when he called his last with 23 seconds left. now i realize that in hindsight this is a lack of communication amongst the three of us (which will be reviewed in detail in every pre-game i do fron here on out), but what do you have at that time? a coach may not "request an excessive time-out", but what do you do here when he claims he was not requesting one and had just recently been informed that he had none? just curious for thoughts, will let you know what we did..

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by kbilla

had a situation the other night, varsity boys game, 3-man mechanics..team A hits a shot with 3.7 seconds left, i am lead transitioning to new trail, i immediately look up and see the team B coach jumping up and down with his hands over his head and i see him mouth the words "time-out" (extremely loud, so i could not hear the words). so i come out and kill the clock. the clock had run down under a second. i come over and my partner asks what i have, i say i have a timeout white, we're putting 3.7 seconds back on. his response.."white is out of timeouts". immediately the coach comes over and pleads that he was yelling to his team "no timeouts" because he had been informed by U2 that he was out of timeouts when he called his last with 23 seconds left. now i realize that in hindsight this is a lack of communication amongst the three of us (which will be reviewed in detail in every pre-game i do fron here on out), but what do you have at that time? a coach may not "request an excessive time-out", but what do you do here when he claims he was not requesting one and had just recently been informed that he had none? just curious for thoughts, will let you know what we did..

It was a ploy by the coach to get the clock stopped. He knew the clock would run out before his team could inbound the ball so he requested the time-out hoping that the crew would then rule it an inadvertant whistle. But he would have accomplished his goal of stopping the clock so his team could set up a play.

I would have charged him the time-out and put back whatever time I (or my partners) saw when I blew my whistle. After the time-out period ended opposing team shoots 2 free throws and then takes ball out at division line.

[rainmaker]

Were his hands shaping a "T"? And who was he looking at? Was he trying to catch the eye of a ref? Seems to me as though in the final seconds of a close game that using a T signal to tell his players NOT to call a timeout is pretty stupid. Or a ploy as suggested? I'd have a hard time buying the coach's story.

[deecee]

did you see him make a signal for the timeout -- and do you think he could have had any words preceeded "timeout" that you could have missed -- i tell coaches that i have to see a signal or i have to be making eye contact while he says timeout and i can hear him. other than that without visual verification no timeout.

but it could be a ploy -- what was the score?

[kbilla]

we ended up calling it indavertant and put the 3.7 seconds back on...we did consider that after the fact that it was a ploy, but that would be an EXTREMELY risky move for the coach to make. consider that he still had 3.7 seconds which would have been long enough for a quick inbound and get the ball into the frontcourt for a last second try....plus the fact that the stopped clock also allowed the defense to set up....not to mention that he would have had to think of all this in an instant unless he had tried it before...the question though is how are you sure that he is calling timeout? in a packed gym, last second, extremely loud...i saw the words "time out" being mouthed...i guess in that situation you can wait for a visual signal....turned out with the defense set up they didn't get off much of a shot and it didn't have an impact on the game, but it is still a tough situation that could have been eliminated w/ better communication...

[tjones1]

Well, I've got a timeout request per 5-8-3 (visual request - granted he was making a "T" with his hands above his head). Thus, you granted it, and it was an excessive TO. Therefore, put the time back on the clock as you saw it whenever you blew the play dead. So, two shots for Team A and ball, opposite table at the division line for a throw in.

[kbilla]

his team was down 3 with the bucket by team A...there was another guy in the stands, veteran official and he said he definitely saw the words "time out" mouthed by him, but there certainly could have been a "NO" in front of it as in "NO TIME OUT"...his hands were stretched over his head, but not visually signalling T....it's a sitaution where you expect him to be calling timeout so you think you are doing him a favor, when in reality you should hold back in that situation....should be addressed in pregame with coaches that you need to either hear an audibal timeout or see a visual T....he was looking in my direction, but all of the action was there so i can't be sure he was looking right at me..

[kbilla]

but is "NO TIMEOUT" a visual request? he said the words "TIME OUT", but i can't be sure there isn't a "NO" in front of it..

[deecee]

you guys did fine -- however why put time back on the clock? -- clock should have been at what it was when whistle was blown. now that is a screw up -- only put back the time if it was a timeout because thats when he called it -- he just got a bonus second or 2 -- clock keeps running after a make

kbilla our job is not to mindread -- if you think that maybe he was saying it or maybe he wasnt then you are not sure and just go inadvertant and play on.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by kbilla

but is "NO TIMEOUT" a visual request? he said the words "TIME OUT", but i can't be sure there isn't a "NO" in front of it..

The visual request would be the hands in the shape of a T like a ref giving a technical foul. He also should be making eye contact with an official. Was he doing either or both of these?

[kbilla]

the lag time was not between the timeout signal and my whistle, it was between my whistle and the clock stopping, sorry for the confusion..i looked up as he called timeout and saw the 3.7 as i blew my whistle, i guess the ball went in around 4 or 4.2 then...

[kbilla]

hard to tell eye contact as i am the trail and he is on the opposite bench..like i said he was looking in the direction of the action, screaming, but did not make the T signal with his hands, they were just up above his head..

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by kbilla

hard to tell eye contact as i am the trail and he is on the opposite bench..like i said he was looking in the direction of the action, screaming, but did not make the T signal with his hands, they were just up above his head..

Then I wouldn't have called it. If he complained that we didn't, I'd say, "You weren't shaping a T, you weren't making eye contact, and you didn't have any left."

[kbilla]

i think it just comes down to lack of communication. in every pregame from here on out i am going to suggest that the official who reports the final timeout for either team clearly indicate to both partners that they are out, which is something that a lot of guys do anyways, but not everyone..had i known that i would have ignored whatever the coach was doing....also make it clear to coaches in pre-game what they must do to have a timeout granted, either audible request or visual T, suggest they do both...under the circumstances, i am just glad we did not impact the game...

[deecee]

ok then 3.7 is correct - but you guys handled it in IMO -- coaches who want a timeout will make it very obvious -- they will be looking at an official,making a signal, doing a raindance, and drinking the blood of a goat -- there are times that you might even hear them and they could be 2 or 3 steps on the court to MAKE sure they are noticed. in 3man you should have had a partner much closer to him who might have heard exactly what he said -- the new lead would be a couple feet from him and the C would be around half court. but once again in that situation many would have done that -- then again didnt you know the TO situation going into that stich.