Tech on Coach situation

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

I will tell you that PA does not interpret the coaching box activity the same as Kansas. Here, coaches are permitted to stand in the box as long as they want, observing the play on the court. As long as they stay in their box and are not chirping at the refs, they are okay. If they begin to stray or attempt to influence any calls by a ref, they will be seated via a "T".

And this dude is not OS, because we don't "hate" him yet.

Hate is such a nasty word...

I don't dislike anyone on here yet either, so I guess the feeling is mutual.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Ok JR, educate me. Show me where the NFHS explicitly states a head coach may stand the entire game (barring a T) when remaining perfectly silent and not uttering word or moving. It states he may only stand "for the purpose of coaching his/her team".

Only in Kansas do they so narrowly define coaching as requiring some sort of verbal or physical activity. "Coaching" would also include watching the play; but I guess in Kansas, this part of coaching must be done while seated.

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Ask your self why would the NFHS put qualitative language in the rule like "for the purpose of coaching his team" if they meant to allow him to stand 32 minutes? What other purpose would a head coach have to stand in the box according to you - if EVERYTHING he does is "coaching"?

This is so easy it hardly bears stating.... But...
It's meant to let the coaches know they are allowed to stand to coach, not to stand up and work the officials.

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Hmmmmmm. Before you state someone is wrong, or his state is the only one clarifying the rule, show definitive proof.

I'd say the burden of proof falls on you to show there's more than one state that defines "coach" so narrowly.

[Scrapper1]

It sounds to me as though you are interpreting the Kansas bench rule correctly, from the passage that you quoted. Personally, I kind of like it. But it's not the NFHS interpretation, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Hate is such a nasty word...

That comment was in quotes (we don't "hate" him yet), because the previous poster used to say very often "why do you have to be hating on me", or some variation of that. Since you have not resorted to accusing us of hate, you don't seem to be that previous annoying poster. Just FYI.

[rockyroad]

If the posted info is the correct Kansas interpretation (and I have no reason to think it isn't) then why does Kansas even have a Coaching box??? The things they are saying a coach may do are the exact things that a coach is allowed to do in states that do not allow a coaching box...the coach can stand to cheer a play, coach the team, greet a player coming out of the game, grab a player to put into the game - and then must immediately sit back down. So why have a coaching box at all?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If the posted info is the correct Kansas interpretation (and I have no reason to think it isn't) then why does Kansas even have a Coaching box??? The things they are saying a coach may do are the exact things that a coach is allowed to do in states that do not allow a coaching box...the coach can stand to cheer a play, coach the team, greet a player coming out of the game, grab a player to put into the game - and then must immediately sit back down. So why have a coaching box at all?

"coach a team" is not one of the allowed actions without a coaching box.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Ok. Great about IL. Do you have the NFHS interp? Please share.

Well, in the NFHS 2006-07 Rules, back in the POI's, there's this mention of the Coaching Box:

Originally Posted by 2006-07 Rule Book

Coaching Box – In states that authorize the use of the optional coaching box, the head coach is the only person on the bench that is permitted to stand and must remain in the coaching box. All other bench personnel must remain seated at all times except when a team member is reporting to the scorer's table, during time-outs or intermissions, and to spontaneously react to a play.

There is no distinction mentioned of only being able to do certain things while standing. The distinction is being made between the head coach and other bench personnel; who is able to stand, and who is not. As I mentioned, in IL the concern is that some coaches feel that standing allows them greater license to abuse officials.

Originally Posted by KSRef07

That interp does not address the topic at hand - when a coach may stand.

Actually, it does - it says the head coach is the only one permitted to not stay seated on the bench. The word "stand" has always meant the same as "not sitting on the bench", and has tacitly included such actions as pacing, kneeling, hopping, etc., as long as it is done within the confines of the coaching box and is not construed as an action specifically against the rules, such as inciting the crowd or being disrespectful towards an official. The NCAA has used the same interpretations regarding the coaching box rule.

In post #2 of this thread, your answer to the original poster was:

Originally Posted by KSRef07

The only person who can stand is the head coach. And he/she can only stand to "instruct players", then must sit.

You forgot to mention that this is the KS interp. You answer seemed to imply this was the NFHS and/or NCAA interp. Most of us have been responding to the fact that this is not the NFHS interp of the coaching box rule. Remember, different states use variations on the rules; some states use a shot clock, others do not use the coaching box rule. It's important to distinguish and identify local and state interpretations when discussing rules on this forum.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If the posted info is the correct Kansas interpretation (and I have no reason to think it isn't) then why does Kansas even have a Coaching box??? The things they are saying a coach may do are the exact things that a coach is allowed to do in states that do not allow a coaching box...the coach can stand to cheer a play, coach the team, greet a player coming out of the game, grab a player to put into the game - and then must immediately sit back down. So why have a coaching box at all?

Not really. If there is no coaching box the coach cannot stand to coach the team. Only to spontaneously react to a play.

The coaching box allows the coach more latitude - to actively direct players.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, in the NFHS 2006-07 Rules, back in the POI's, there's this mention of the Coaching Box:

There is no distinction mentioned of only being able to do certain things while standing. The distinction is being made between the head coach and other bench personnel; who is able to stand, and who is not. As I mentioned, in IL the concern is that some coaches feel that standing allows them greater license to abuse officials.


Actually, it does - it says the head coach is the only one permitted to not stay seated on the bench. The word "stand" has always meant the same as "not sitting on the bench", and has tacitly included such actions as pacing, kneeling, hopping, etc., as long as it is done within the confines of the coaching box and is not construed as an action specifically against the rules, such as inciting the crowd or being disrespectful towards an official. The NCAA has used the same interpretations regarding the coaching box rule.

In post #2 of this thread, your answer to the original poster was:

You forgot to mention that this is the KS interp. You answer seemed to imply this was the NFHS and/or NCAA interp. Most of us have been responding to the fact that this is not the NFHS interp of the coaching box rule. Remember, different states use variations on the rules; some states use a shot clock, others do not use the coaching box rule. It's important to distinguish and identify local and state interpretations when discussing rules on this forum.

Since the coaching box is relatively new you would think there would be more cases and formal clarifications by NFHS. I still think the qualifying language of "stand for the purpose of coaching his team" implies there are purposes for which he CANNOT stand and things he can't do such as sit or kneel. Just my opinion. Obviously nagging refs gets a T no matter if there is a box or not - so that can't be the reason.

Glad KS has taken the mystery out of it.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Since the coaching box is relatively new you would think there would be more cases and formal clarifications by NFHS. I still think the qualifying language of "stand for the purpose of coaching his team" implies there are purposes for which he CANNOT stand and things he can't do such as sit or kneel. Just my opinion. Obviously nagging refs gets a T no matter if there is a box or not - so that can't be the reason.

Glad KS has taken the mystery out of it.

Under 10-5 of my rules book it reads: By state association adoption the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2, for the purpose of coaching his/her team. I do not find the word "stand" in that paragraph. Why do you want to read limitations into this?

[Splute]

oops my bad, you are obviously quoting KS exceptions and not NFHS rules. Apparently KS feels the need to further limit coaches or remove the ability to reason from the ref.

Originally Posted by Splute

Under 10-5 of my rules book it reads: By state association adoption the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2, for the purpose of coaching his/her team. I do not find the word "stand" in that paragraph. Why do you want to read limitations into this?

You are correct. KS state read limitations, not me, regarding standing. I should have clarified.

However, "for the purpose of coaching" is a limiting statement. My question is simply, "What other purposes, sportsmanlike or unsportsmanlike, are there for standing that are NOT permitted?

Unsportsmanlike is easy. If that was the clarification other wording would have been used.

Sportsmanlike purposes that would not be permitted? If none, then why not strike that phrase in total? I believe they wanted to indirectly say you can't just stand for 32 minutes like a statue because it opens the door to other bad actions.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Sportsmanlike purposes that would not be permitted? If none, then why not strike that phrase in total? I believe they wanted to indirectly say you can't just stand for 32 minutes like a statue because it opens the door to other bad actions.

You're reading too much into it. They don't indirectly say anything. It's been around long enough, if they wanted it to mean coaches could only stand when talking to players, they would have directly, explicitly, and expressly said as much.

The fact that Kansas is the only state that does this ought to speak volumes.

BTW, are there any other Kansas refs on here that have an opinion on this?

[Nevadaref]

In KS may the head coach stand up and walk down to the end of the bench to get a drink of water from the jug that is placed down there?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In KS may the head coach stand up and walk down to the end of the bench to get a drink of water from the jug that is placed down there?

Of course not. That's not coaching. Warning and then a "T" if he gets thirsty again.

[Adam]

He could send a student down to get it for him.