Block Charge Question

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Where do you come up with "with a moving player who is catching the ball, the defender must give time and distance to that player"

There is no time and distance required when the player catches the ball. Go back an reread the casebook play that Nevada posted.

If the offense player has caught the ball; it is a guarding situation and no time or distance is required in NFHS Ball. The NBA has a different rule but not high school.

This is a play where you have to see the whle play and know what happened first but as described catch then collision in Legal guarding position it is a charge/PC foul

Kelvin, for Pete's sake (whoever Pete is), you cant disappear for months at a time and then just show up here to answer a question, as if you'd been sitting in the corner the whole time. Details, Kelvin, we want details!! Where you been, and how are you?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I have a block as well. I understand the defender is "a few steps away", but with a moving player who is catching the ball, the defender must give time and distance to that player and later in the sitch it says, "the post player catches, and immediately slams into the defender". The way I see this in my head (which I agree is a "I would have to see it" play) it is a blocking foul.

Give your head a shake.......

The rules(both NFHS and NCAA) say that no time or distance is required to gain a legal guarding position on a player with the ball. The only proviso is that you must establish LGP on an airborne player before they leave the feet. As you noted above, the player caught the ball before slamming into the defender. It can't be a block under the rules.

If the player hasn't caught the ball, time or distance is required. If they have caught the ball, no time or distance is required.

Basic concept.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I have a block as well. I understand the defender is "a few steps away", but with a moving player who is catching the ball, the defender must give time and distance to that player and later in the sitch it says, "the post player catches, and immediately slams into the defender". The way I see this in my head (which I agree is a "I would have to see it" play) it is a blocking foul.

And that, folks, is a big part of why we catch so much grief....officials that don't understand the requirements LGP (make up their own criteria) and continue to call a block when it should be a charge.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And that, folks, is a big part of why we catch so much grief....officials that don't understand the requirements LGP (make up their own criteria) and continue to call a block when it should be a charge.

Amen!!!!!
I can't tell you how many instances that my fellow officials have replied "His feet weren't set" or "He was leaning backward" when I ask them about a call that was indisputably a charge on the offense. I am convinced the typical official in my area is making the correct call on this play less frequently than if they just flipped a coin. How difficult is it to gain full comprehension of Rule 4 section 23?

My pet peeves cheating the defense on block/charge and cheating the offense on continuous motion...due to incorrect or bogus rules interps and/or not being properly trained or studying the real rules

Later

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The rules(both NFHS and NCAA) say that no time or distance is required to gain a legal guarding position on a player with the ball. The only proviso is that you must establish LGP on an airborne player before they leave the feet. As you noted above, the player caught the ball before slamming into the defender. It can't be a block under the rules.

If the player hasn't caught the ball, time or distance is required. If they have caught the ball, no time or distance is required.

Basic concept.

If the catch and contact were simultaneous would you consider it a block then? I am trying to picture this happening and have to admit when I first read the Op I thought Block, Then as I read more posts I am thinking yea a charge fits but what if?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Give your head a shake.......

The rules(both NFHS and NCAA) say that no time or distance is required to gain a legal guarding position on a player with the ball. The only proviso is that you must establish LGP on an airborne player before they leave the feet. As you noted above, the player caught the ball before slamming into the defender. It can't be a block under the rules.

If the player hasn't caught the ball, time or distance is required. If they have caught the ball, no time or distance is required.

Basic concept.

So I have a question then:

If a post player is being fronted and a lob pass comes to him and he jumps to get it, and does indeed grab it while he is still in the air and tries to land and as he is landing he slams into the secondary defender, we have an offensive foul, per HS and college rule?

Or:

A2 is running down the floor looking for an outlet pass, and it is on its way. A1 throws the pass out in front of A2 to lead him. While he is looking the ball in, B1 sets up in front of A2 and right as A2 receives the pass, before he can turn his head around, we have a crash. You are saying this is an offensive foul as well per HS and college rule?

Not looking to argue, just wanting a good straight forward answer.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So I have a question then:

If a post player is being fronted and a lob pass comes to him and he jumps to get it, and does indeed grab it while he is still in the air and tries to land and as he is landing he slams into the secondary defender, we have an offensive foul, per HS and college rule?

Or:

A2 is running down the floor looking for an outlet pass, and it is on its way. A1 throws the pass out in front of A2 to lead him. While he is looking the ball in, B1 sets up in front of A2 and right as A2 receives the pass, before he can turn his head around, we have a crash. You are saying this is an offensive foul as well per HS and college rule?

Assuming B1 has LGP your answer is yes.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

If a post player is being fronted and a lob pass comes to him and he jumps to get it, and does indeed grab it while he is still in the air and tries to land and as he is landing he slams into the secondary defender, we have an offensive foul, per HS and college rule?

If the secondary defender was in his guarding position before the post player left the ground, then yes, it's a charge. If the secondary defender moved to his spot after the offensive player went airborne, then your play would be a block.

A2 is running down the floor looking for an outlet pass, and it is on its way. A1 throws the pass out in front of A2 to lead him. While he is looking the ball in, B1 sets up in front of A2 and right as A2 receives the pass, before he can turn his head around, we have a crash. You are saying this is an offensive foul as well per HS and college rule?

If the offensive player catches the ball and lands before the crash, then it's a charge. If the defensive player was in place before the offensive player left the floor, then it doesn't matter if he catches the ball, it's a charge.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

If the catch and contact were simultaneous would you consider it a block then? I am trying to picture this happening and have to admit when I first read the Op I thought Block, Then as I read more posts I am thinking yea a charge fits but what if?

When he catches the ball is completely irrelevant. What matters is when the defender obtained LGP.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the offensive player catches the ball and lands before the crash, then it's a charge. If the defensive player was in place before the offensive player left the floor, then it doesn't matter if he catches the ball, it's a charge.

Not quite. If the player was running full speed, the catch of the ball can turn what was not LGP into LGP. If the defender obtained the position just as the full speed opponent leaped, the defender hasn't given enough time and distance (as is required for a player without the ball). If the player doesn't catch the ball before the contact, it is a block. However, if the opponent catches the ball, the requirement for time/distance is eliminated, and the postion the defender took is LGP....it is a charge.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

When he catches the ball is completely irrelevant. What matters is when the defender obtained LGP.

But, obtaining LGP depends on whether the opponent has the ball or not. The requirements are different. So, the timing of the catch does matter. Contact first could be a block (if the defender didn't obtain the spot allowing for time/distance) while catch first could make the same contact a charge (no time/distance required).

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not quite. If the player was running full speed, the catch of the ball can turn what was not LGP into LGP. If the defender obtained the position just as the full speed opponent leaped, the defender hasn't given enough time and distance (as is required for a player without the ball). If the player doesn't catch the ball before the contact, it is a block. However, if the opponent catches the ball, the requirement for time/distance is eliminated, and the postion the defender took is LGP....it is a charge.

Doesn't this seem like too much to process in a split second? Wouldn't this be much better if there was a guideline in place for this such as, "if in transition between the baseline in the backcourt and tip of circle in the frontcourt, all plays of this nature will be deemed block as this is a way of drawing a cheap offensive foul by hoping to establish LGP before the player has a chance to turn to see the defender."

It might not seem like that to some people, but to me this is, in fact a cheap way to draw an offensive foul by not giving the opportunity to see the defender but for a split second and getting an offensive foul call. And to add to that it is all dependent on whether the guy has the ball or doesn't have the ball, whether he left the ground or was already in air, or landed or was still airborne. That is just too much if, if, and, but, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the rule and will attempt to ref as such, but I am just asking do we think it would be better, in these cases, to have a guideline in place to make these plays way more uniform?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Doesn't this seem like too much to process in a split second?

In general, maybe, but in the OP, the answer is obvious. Defender had LGP for donkey's years, and when A caught the ball is irrelevant. PC. And this sitch really doesn't happen very often, if ever. And it's not really all that hard to ref. See the defense, watch for LGP, then glance at offense. NBD.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

If the catch and contact were simultaneous would you consider it a block then?

I don't think that you can rule the acts as "simultaneous" in real time. Note the word "think". You have to pick one as occurring first because of the different rules criteria involved. If the player doesn't have the ball, the defender must give time and distance. If the player has the ball, the defender doesn't have to give time and distance. If the catch and contact are truly simultaneous, I really don't how to call it right, as per the rules.

Btw, note that this doesn't apply to situations where the defender has already attained a LGP by giving time and distance. I'm thinking of cases where the defender steps in front of the offensive player at the last second.

Heckuva question, Smokey....

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't think that you can rule the acts as "simultaneous" in real time. Note the word "think". You have to pick one as occurring first because of the different rules criteria involved. If the player doesn't have the ball, the defender must give time and distance. If the player has the ball, the defender doesn't have to give time and distance. If the catch and contact are truly simultaneous, I really don't how to call it right, as per the rules.

Travel?