How big is the coaching box?

[rainmaker]

Mark, yea, she's way out on the floor. But I also think the announcer is making way, way too big a deal out of it. And I don't think no refs saw it. I think they just didn't do anything. There's no way that trail at the very beginning didn't see that coach. In HS, I would definitely call that or at least say something really, really firm, but this isn't HS ball, and I'll let them decide what works for them.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Mark, yea, she's way out on the floor. But I also think the announcer is making way, way too big a deal out of it. And I don't think no refs saw it. I think they just didn't do anything. There's no way that trail at the very beginning didn't see that coach. In HS, I would definitely call that or at least say something really, really firm, but this isn't HS ball, and I'll let them decide what works for them.

A double negative. So you really think the refs DID see it.

[zebraman]

As far out onto the floor as that coach was (for quite some time), I do not see how someone in the crew did not notice. Officials don't have tunnel vision. The only explanation I can think of is that the crew knew they had just blown a call and were going to let her vent a little. That wouldn't be a good excuse, but it's the only thing I can come up with.

I bet the observers had a lot to say in the locker room. That is just terrible bench management.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

As far out onto the floor as that coach was (for quite some time), I do not see how someone in the crew did not notice. Officials don't have tunnel vision. The only explanation I can think of is that the crew knew they had just blown a call and were going to let her vent a little. That wouldn't be a good excuse, but it's the only thing I can come up with.

I bet the observers had a lot to say in the locker room. That is just terrible bench management.

The coach might have been clearly out of the box for about 5 seconds at most. About half of that time there was a double team near the Trail official. The Trail official had 3 players right in front of him/her (sorry I cannot tell). Then the ball clearly goes to the other side of the court or near the paint (which we cannot see). As the ball goes away from camera view, the coach is at best on the edge of the coaching box but that is not very clear because the camera angle does not show how far based on the bench is blocking the line. Then as the ball is on the other side of the court, the ball starts going in transition to the other end of the court and the ball is opposite the table.

Now the best official that would have been able to tell is the Trail official mainly because they are on that side. If you know anything about Women's mechanics, they rotate anytime the ball is on the opposite part of the court. It is possible the Lead official made a rotation (we cannot tell on the tape) during the sequence.

Now this tape was only 25 seconds long where 2 transitions are taking place and we are talking seriously about bad management of a coach all during live ball play? Are we serious?

If this situation took place during a HS game and we are using a 14 foot box, not only would we have to know if a coach was on the court, but their depth in that box. So a coach could be completely out of box and we expect officials during live action to know all the coach's whereabouts?

I work pretty much only 3 Person in all my games and I can tell you I hardly ever know where a coach is standing during a live ball unless the ball is right in front of the bench. Now if this was during a dead ball I would understand the reaction. But during live ball in a very short period of time, not that is a little silly if you ask me.

Peace

[Stat-Man]

In 2001, my college alumni were invited to fill in at a college summer league. For some of the games, I kinda assumed the rolse as coach, since it was obvious i wouldn't play much.

In one game, I'm coaching, and wouldn't you know it, the other's team coach comes down and starts coaching in my coaching box.

He did this a couple of more times, so I figured I may as well join the fun and coach from his box. When I do this, the one referee (who was the host school's head coach) tells me to get back into my box. I let him know at the next dead ball that if we were going to enforce the technical points of the rules in a summer game, he needed to tell the other coach to stop tap dancing his way down to my box. Referee told the coach something, and I got a dirty look from said coach, but i just looked at him and shrugged my shoulders, as if to say "What did you expect me to do?"

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I work pretty much only 3 Person in all my games and I can tell you I hardly ever know where a coach is standing during a live ball unless the ball is right in front of the bench. Now if this was during a dead ball I would understand the reaction. But during live ball in a very short period of time, not that is a little silly if you ask me.

Peace

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Rut. Maybe my state and my college assignors have a different viewpoint on the coaching box than yours do. All I do in my HS and college games is 3-person. The trail had to see the coach on the floor. She was right in front of him as he was coming up the floor. The lead might not have seen the coach if they were turned and watching off-ball, but I would think that the C would have noticed even if they were staying in their area and being aware of where the ball was.

I'm going to assume that the trail didn't think he had time to address the situation during that play and addressed the coach a short time later. I would really like to think that happened. If nobody addressed it then, I'd hate to see how far the coach got out on the floor later in the game.

In our state, coach management is a pretty big emphasis even at the HS level. Allowing a coach to be that far out on the floor without being noticed would definitely be a reason for a crew to not advance to the semi-final round at the state tournament.

And of course there is the recent 2007-08 POI for men's NCAA regarding the coaching box.

[JugglingReferee]

If I miss that a coach is that far out of the coaching box, I know it's time for me to hang up the whistle.

She should've been dealt with.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Rut. Maybe my state and my college assignors have a different viewpoint on the coaching box than yours do. All I do in my HS and college games is 3-person. The trail had to see the coach on the floor. She was right in front of him as he was coming up the floor. The lead might not have seen the coach if they were turned and watching off-ball, but I would think that the C would have noticed even if they were staying in their area and being aware of where the ball was.

I have never had a college assignor that I work for or during a camp ever make an issue out of where a coach stands during live ball action like this video and others here are trying to suggest. And certainly not to give a T if this is the first observation of this action which none of us can tell.

Originally Posted by zebraman

I'm going to assume that the trail didn't think he had time to address the situation during that play and addressed the coach a short time later. I would really like to think that happened. If nobody addressed it then, I'd hate to see how far the coach got out on the floor later in the game.

I seriously do not see anything nefarious about a coach stepping out onto a court a little because they are usually caught up in the emotion of the game. I do not think this coach was trying to get away with anything. She was coaching and she is emotional and I bet she did not even realize where she was. I do not think the coaching box is a slippery slop for other actions just because your foot is across the line.

Originally Posted by zebraman

In our state, coach management is a pretty big emphasis even at the HS level. Allowing a coach to be that far out on the floor without being noticed would definitely be a reason for a crew to not advance to the semi-final round at the state tournament.

My state in 2005-2006 went around threatening all officials with no playoffs if they did not get every official to enforce the coaching box to the letter. The following year they completely backed off and even admitted that they might have went overboard in expecting officials to only give Ts for that kind of action. My God, this tape was only 25 seconds long. We have no idea what was addressed or what the officials saw. I stand by the fact that it is very likely the officials did not see this coach at all. Officials do not have eyes in the back of their head.

In football there is a similar rule that only allows 3 coaches in the coaching box at any one time and I have yet to hear anyone of influence suggest officials should be turning around to watch coaches to verify how many coaches should be in the box. Most of the time that is noticed in football is when there is a dead ball or a play happens near the sideline.

Originally Posted by zebraman

And of course there is the recent 2007-08 POI for men's NCAA regarding the coaching box.

Well until the NCAA Meetings take place (which will start in a week or so), it is going to be very difficult to know what they want. The NCAA does a much better job in explaining their POEs. And I have been to those meetings only to have the Supervisor of Officials to clearly state how they want things like this to be handled. I am sure there will be some commentary as there always is about what they want officials to do and not to do. And I would not bet that there is a different position from the Women's side to the Men's side.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have never had a college assignor that I work for or during a camp ever make an issue out of where a coach stands during live ball action like this video and others here are trying to suggest. And certainly not to give a T if this is the first observation of this action which none of us can tell.

Like I said Rut, the philosophy of who we work for may have a big bearing on how aware we are of where coaches are. I used to not notice coaches much unless they were screaming at the crew. Now I am very aware of them at all times because it is so emphasized around here.

Our men's college meeting is coming up soon, but our assignor went to the NCAA meetings and sent out the POI's via e-mail already. Next to the POI about the coaching box, he hand-wrote a note that said, "zero tolerance" so I think it's going to be a much bigger emphasis this year. Quite possibly due to the fact that officials are doing a poor job of dealing with coaches who gain an advantage by leaving the box. The college coaching box is huge. There is no excuse for allowing coaches to make it even bigger, IMO.

There doesn't need to be anything nefarious about a coach stepping out on the court to gain an advantage. Calling a technical is not the only way to deal with a coach stepping on to the floor in their exhuberance. Ignoring it completely will certainly lead to bigger problems later.

[mick]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

A double negative. So you really think the refs DID see it.

That's exactly what rainmaker said ! She thinks someone ignored it.