2-man To question...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

I am starting with Sub Varsity of course and have heard many horror stories regarding poor books and clock, etc. I am trying to find ways to minimize these issues. Perhaps they really are minor in the big scheme and team fouls is sufficient. I try to make a point to see if the clock starts / stops and AP is changed. Keep the advice coming.

Your biggest problem usually at this level will be getting the scorer to track the bonus' properly and inform you correctly. Time-outs and foul-outs take care of themselves. You have to trust the scorer to enter the right #s on fouls and keep the correct count of TO's. You can't do their jobs.

Keeping an eye on the clock and the arrow is always a good idea though at any level.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Your biggest problem usually at this level will be getting the scorer to track the bonus' properly and inform you correctly. Time-outs and foul-outs take care of themselves. You have to trust the scorer to enter the right #s on fouls and keep the correct count of TO's. You can't do their jobs.

Keeping an eye on the clock and the arrow is always a good idea though at any level.

sounds like a good opportunity to use rule 2-10; if caught in time. Just when you think you will never have that in your game..... hum. Thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

sounds like a good opportunity to use rule 2-10; if caught in time. Just when you think you will never have that in your game..... hum. Thanks.

Actually, scoring errors can be corrected at any time until the end of the game. No need for 2-10 at all. Use 2-11-11.

[Mark Padgett]

Without intending to start a new direction for this thread because we've discussed the following to death many times, I still can't believe anyone is "told" or practices intentionally not calling a deserved foul on a "star" player based on the game situation. This is truly making a mockery of the game and calling the game in a manner that is absolutely unfair and biased. I don't care what rationalization you use, it is totally wrong.

Remember - if we call the game the same from beginning to end and call it as evenly as humanly possible, the play of the players will determine the outcome and the team that plays the best will win - and that's what's supposed to happen. If any player, and I do mean any player, commits one more foul than what's allowed, that player has fouled out and doesn't deserve to continue to play in the game - PERIOD! This is called having the quality of play by a player determine that players effectiveness in the game.

OK - now I'll tell you how I really feel about this subject.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Without intending to start a new direction for this thread because we've discussed the following to death many times, I still can't believe anyone is "told" or practices intentionally not calling a deserved foul on a "star" player based on the game situation. This is truly making a mockery of the game and calling the game in a manner that is absolutely unfair and biased. I don't care what rationalization you use, it is totally wrong.

I think you are taking the comments out of context. I did not say any of this that you have suggested in any way. I think knowing this kind of thing is a knowledge thing than calling something different. The reason I want to know who the stars are because anything that happens to them is going to be the topic of conversation with the coach. I had a coach one time claim we were not calling enough fouls in favor of his "All-Americans" (his words not mine). I do not think I have read anyone else suggest we do not call the game properly either. I think most people unfairly try to turn this philosophy into a nefarious practice that is not there.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Remember - if we call the game the same from beginning to end and call it as evenly as humanly possible, the play of the players will determine the outcome and the team that plays the best will win - and that's what's supposed to happen. If any player, and I do mean any player, commits one more foul than what's allowed, that player has fouled out and doesn't deserve to continue to play in the game - PERIOD! This is called having the quality of play by a player determine that players effectiveness in the game.

And I would like you to find a single quote in which I said any different or anyone else (please do not refer to the village idiot on this topic) for that matter.

I would also suggest that the end of the game is likely considered a more important part of the game than the very beginning. Considering that usually what happens at the end gets magnified as compared to what happens at the beginning. If I screw up a foul call on the very first play of the game that will not be remembered if the last call of the game was made correctly. For me I want to have as much information so I can stay focused. I also want my calls to be solid near the end if I have not had the best effort the rest of the game.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

OK - now I'll tell you how I really feel about this subject.

Now what cha got?

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now what cha got?

Rut - who ever said I was referring to you? I'd consider it an honor to work any game with you. Oh yeah - you'd have to provide air fare and per diem.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Rut - who ever said I was referring to you? I'd consider it an honor to work any game with you. Oh yeah - you'd have to provide air fare and per diem.

You did not have to be referring to me at all. I am very sorry for being presumptive.

Peace

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Without intending to start a new direction for this thread because we've discussed the following to death many times, I still can't believe anyone is "told" or practices intentionally not calling a deserved foul on a "star" player based on the game situation. This is truly making a mockery of the game and calling the game in a manner that is absolutely unfair and biased. I don't care what rationalization you use, it is totally wrong.

I know you didn't intend to take this in a different direction but i can't let this ride. One of the village idiots weighed in with his opinion. I have another.

What you are advocating is hypocrisy if your position is it is “totally wrong.” Part of being a professional official (this is taught at the NBA level) is knowing your environment before going in. What that means is knowing what transpired the last time these two teams met. Was there an incident? If so, which players where involved? Did the team win or lose their last game? Is this a must win for one of the teams? Could a coaches job be on the line if he doesn’t win this game? Do we have any star athletes? The official that knows this info going into every game is more prepared imo to referee that game then the offficial who doesn't care.

Star athletes (S/A) are the attraction. Without star athlete, we may have 20 folks in a gym that seats 1000. With the S/A, gym is full. Remember when LeBron was in HS, they could no longer host his games in the hs gym because it simply wasn't big enough to hold all the fans, therefore, all his games was moved to an arena. Now, if your position is to call the game without any regards to the S/A that are playing in the game. Then you just made the game about you. Guaranteed, if you got 4 fouls on LeBron in the first half and you don’t care about that, guaranteed you won’t be asked to work anymore of his games or any other games involving a S/A.

If you are an official that aspires to work the best games, the best quality games. The best quality games are the games with the best or star athletes. When an assigner is challenged with putting a crew of officials on a game like this, you can believe one of the criteria is an official that doesn’t have a chip on his shoulder, that takes everything into consideration. Not only will you never be asked to work another game like this in the future, should you make the mistake of fouling LeBron (when he played HS) out in the 1st quarter or 1st half, but you would put your assigner in hot water too, because they’re going to think the assigner is an idiot putting an official like you on this type of game.

What I’m saying, is the official that takes every significant variable into consideration, and a S/A, that has the gym packed is a significant variable. This official is the one you want on the game. It is hypocrisy to say this shouldn't matter.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Actually, scoring errors can be corrected at any time until the end of the game. No need for 2-10 at all. Use 2-11-11.

I was referring to failure to award a meritted free throw (bonus sit). did I quote the wrong rule? curses... thought i had that memorized.