NBA Charge Foul rules

[Jimgolf]

I'm not going to argue the technical merits of the writer's suggestion. Personally, my judgment isn't good enough to determine whether a collision is a block or a charge in real time at the NBA level. I have trouble even watching in slow motion sometimes.

The point is that the NBA is unwatchable for many former fans. Many posters on this board have stated proudly that they haven't watched a game in years. More than at any other level basketball, the NBA game is about what's good for the fans, not for the players or the officials or the coaches. Personally, I like the game the way it is, except that the Knicks always lose.

Officials have a unique perspective, in that they watch more basketball than almost anyone else, and they understand how the various rule changes can affect the play. If there is a way to improve the NBA game so that you'll watch it, I'd like to hear it.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

A stupid and totally wrong argument.

There is no time or distance with regard to establishing legal guarding postion. It doesn't matter what "step" the dribbler is on. All the guard has to do is establish LGP before the dribbler/shooter begins his upward motion. (NBA Comments on the Rules, II. Basic Principles C. Block-Charge)

That's the writer's point. He knows the current rule. He says that time and distance should matter, because the player cannot change his mind once he gathers for a shot.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

If there is a way to improve the NBA game so that you'll watch it, I'd like to hear it.

Bring back the closely guarded 5-second count. That way, Lebron would have to pass the ball to a teammate, and not score all the points in the 4th quarter, and put everybody to sleep, including the Pistons.

Do away with the 3 seconds defense in the lane. Shooting technicals only slows the game down.

Do not allow players to talk to officials, only captains.

To name a few....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

If there is a way to improve the NBA game so that you'll watch it, I'd like to hear it.

Just calling the rules that they already have might be a good start. Traveling and palming, for example, are very inconsistently called and I don't have a clue what a foul consists of either.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

By calling so many charges, both the frequency of the drive and the legitimate shot block attempt are reduced.

This is an excellent point to build on in all associations, but especially the NBA. I am so sick of seeing a secondary defender go over and establish themselves legally in front of a player about to go airborne. I think we need to do away with this and protect the shooter in an attempt to improve the game. Specifically the part about bringing good defense back to the play. Whenever there's a drive to the basket, secondary defender cannot plant himself in front of the person driving with the ball. Time and distance should be a factor.

For example: Rule 4-40-5 talks about allowing time and distance of not more than 2 strides when screening a moving opponent. We need this same consideration, even more so in my opinion for that of the person with the ball especially when they are driving to the basket for a layup. You can not just jump in front of a guy setting a screen when he is moving, but you can jump in front of the guy with the ball when he is moving just as fast and about to go airborne. Are you kidding me? This is asinine!

Time and distance is not a factor when you are establishing LGP except when you are screening a moving opponent. How about when the guy is about to shoot a layup. His chance for getting seriously injured is higher than the guy that's just playing defense on his opponent. Look at this list of injuries. This info along makes this article very valid, whoever said this guy doesn't know what's he's talking about has had too much to drink.

Article: ****************************************
.Gerald Wallace arrives late (by the old standard) to try to draw a charge on airborne Curtis Borchardt, who is knocked off kilter and breaks his fall with his wrist, which breaks. (To add insult to injury, the ref called a charge.)

. Andrei Kirilenko breaks his wrist on a nasty spill after help defender Kwame Brown hustles from under the hoop to get outside the restricted line as Kirilenko elevates, creating the unintended undercut effect.

. Brad Miller catches a pass on the right side maybe 18 feet from the hoop and sees a clear path to the hoop. Weak side defender Dwyane Wade knows what he must do to earn brownie points from Coach Stan Van Gundy and sprints across the lane to plant his feet outside the restricted line just in time for a knee-on-shin collision with Miller. Wade's hurting; he'll play but struggle for a few weeks before regaining his groove. Miller's a bloody mess. He'll miss a couple of weeks, then come back – probably prematurely – and soon thereafter develop another problem with the same leg, which turns out to be a broken bone, which puts him out for a far longer stretch.

. Nenê drives on Tim Duncan when he sees Horry sprinting at him, trying to get set outside the restricted line and beat Nenê to the spot. To avoid another foul (even an unjust one), Nenê attempts an awkward, unnatural stop on one leg. Is that what caused his knee to explode? One can't say for sure, but I watched the replay several times and that's how it looked to me. That was opening night 2005-06 and it put Nenê out for the season. Even now, his knee is far from right.

. It's the 2006 Finals and Josh Howard beats his man off the dribble. Shaq moves laterally into Howard's path very late (though I think a charge was called). Shaq falls backwards, and 350 pounds crash into the side of the leg of an innocent bystander, creating the first "collateral damage" (CD) injury of the Finals. Miraculously, Wade sustains merely a bad sprain rather than ripped ligaments, and he goes on to lead the Heat to the title. (Kirilenko and Leandro Barbosa each missed six or more weeks after similar CD plays involving careening Spurs far lighter than Shaq.

. Wade penetrates against the Bulls, ascends at the foul line and lobs an alley-oop for Shaq. Othella Harrington, in typical Skiles-coached fashion, comes running from 15 feet away so he can be planted at the precise spot where Wade lands. Harrington offers no resistance to marginal contact from Wade and thus falls flat on his back under the basket as Shaq, who is focused on catching the lob, descends. Shaq's foot lands awkwardly on Harrington and wrenches his knee. A scary end to a scary play, but Dame Fortune smiles on the Diesel. He escapes with a severe sprain and returns to action maybe a couple weeks later, only to catch a Jermaine O'Neal knee with his thigh, dooming the Heat's 2005 title hopes.

. New Spur Brent Barry, eager to show Gregg Popovich he understands the Spurs team-defense concept and is willing to "sacrifice his body" (while subjecting an opposing player to far greater risk), pulls a run-under on a driving Kobe Bryant. Kobe's scary fall momentarily silences the L.A. crowd, but he's okay. Weeks later his season will be ruined by a more mundane run-under play by Ira Newble as Kobe descended after snatching a long rebound. Newble had hustled over, perhaps to attempt a steal, and Kobe landed on his foot, wrecking his ankle (just as Ron Artest did to Shaq early last season).

. Dwight Howard grabs a loose ball near the foul line, sees an opening to the hoop, dribbles in and elevates. Boston's Al Jefferson simultaneously rushes forward from the baseline to try to beat Howard to a piece of wood just outside the restricted line. It's a dead heat, but Howard is airborne when the two meet. Howard's massive body rotates from vertical to horizontal as he hurtles toward the floor face first. Luckily, Jefferson is sprawled on the court, and Howard is able to slightly break his fall by getting a hand or forearm down just as his head is landing on Jefferson. The play leaves both players woozy, but they survive. That was one of the scariest falls I've ever seen. Who knows what would have happened if Howard had been unable to break his fall in the nick of time?

[Adam]

This reminds me of a really stupid theory I read once about food addictions. D@mmit, I can't remember where I read it, though.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Old School

This is an excellent point to build on in all associations, but especially the NBA. I am so sick of seeing a secondary defender go over and establish themselves legally in front of a player about to go airborne. I think we need to do away with this and protect the shooter in an attempt to improve the game. Specifically the part about bringing good defense back to the play. Whenever there's a drive to the basket, secondary defender cannot plant himself in front of the person driving with the ball. Time and distance should be a factor.

For example: Rule 4-40-5 talks about allowing time and distance of not more than 2 strides when screening a moving opponent. We need this same consideration, even more so in my opinion for that of the person with the ball especially when they are driving to the basket for a layup. You can not just jump in front of a guy setting a screen when he is moving, but you can jump in front of the guy with the ball when he is moving just as fast and about to go airborne. Are you kidding me? This is asinine!

Time and distance is not a factor when you are establishing LGP except when you are screening a moving opponent. How about when the guy is about to shoot a layup. His chance for getting seriously injured is higher than the guy that's just playing defense on his opponent. Look at this list of injuries. This info along makes this article very valid, whoever said this guy doesn't know what's he's talking about has had too much to drink.

Article: ****************************************
.Gerald Wallace arrives late (by the old standard) to try to draw a charge on airborne Curtis Borchardt, who is knocked off kilter and breaks his fall with his wrist, which breaks. (To add insult to injury, the ref called a charge.)

. Andrei Kirilenko breaks his wrist on a nasty spill after help defender Kwame Brown hustles from under the hoop to get outside the restricted line as Kirilenko elevates, creating the unintended undercut effect.

OS,

This is just a part of the game, things like that are going to happen. I am definite believer of protecting the shooter, but at what cost? To screw a guy over and not give him an offensive foul call that he rightly deserves to have called in his favor?

In reference to your Kirilenko play, it is a block when he undercuts him. Just because there is a RA doesn't mean that it alone is the determining factor if it is a block or charge. We determine first of it is a good ole block/charge to begin with, then we look for the feet, that's why this is a play that if you call an offensive foul and your partner sees his feet in the RA then you can go to your partner and tell him to change the call because of such.

On plays to the basket where there is a block/charge play w/ a secondary defender, I do believe there is time and distance involved, not as literally as with screening action, but overall I believe there is. We judge whether a guy has LGP on plays to the basket involving a secondary defender by seeing when the offensive player starts his motion, right? Well if that is true most guys start their motion when they gather the ball on their first step, right? So that means that the defender has to be there when he gathers, or his first step when he gathers. This gives the player his second step to change direction, which entails to me that there is, in fact, time and distance involved, and that you gave this man a chance to change direction and avoid contact.

Jurassic has pointed out many times that he doesn't know what a foul is or is not in the pro game. I say this, all the guys in the pro system know what they are calling and the players know what the refs are going to be calling and the coaches know what they are going to be calling and those are the only people that matter. I would now like to ask a question, What is a foul in the college game?

I guess it is all determined on how you were taught to officiate while you're growing up. I was taught by pro guys, so I know, 97% of the time what a foul is in the pro game. I don't know what it is in the college game at all. I'm trying to learn though. I am, right now, a not so hot college ref, but I need to be better cause that is where a plurality of my games are coming from. Do you have to just adjust with what you're crew is calling from night to night?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

OS,

This is just a part of the game, things like that are going to happen. I am definite believer of protecting the shooter, but at what cost? To screw a guy over and not give him an offensive foul call that he rightly deserves to have called in his favor?

I think we're screwing the wrong guy. I think the shooter life is put in jeopardy and he's also tag for the foul. The defender did not try to play defense, he tried to beat him to the spot. That is not playing defense. I'm telling you if our founding father was alive, he would say somebody is asleep at the wheel here. The issue is the athlete is so much quicker, now you mix in a gifted D1 scholarship athlete getting beat to the spot by a lower level player who wouldn't even make the NAIA, who ruins his career. Why is it that in this country, we are not willing to do anything until someone is seriously hurt. For ex: we know that intersection needs a stop light but we refuse to put one there until there's a nasty auto accident and someone gets killed. Then you see a stop light go up real quick. That's what's going to have to happen here, unfortunately. Mark my words.

I got the fix too. If you're a secondary defender, time and distance does apply and the shooter needs no more than 2 steps but no less than one. Then we get back to playing defense on this type of play, trying to block the shot or steal the ball, and no more of this non-basketball sh!t stepping in front of a player driving to the bucket to shoot.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Old School

The defender did not try to play defense, he tried to beat him to the spot. That is not playing defense. The issue is the athlete is so much quicker, now you mix in a gifted D1 scholarship athlete getting beat to the spot by a lower level player who wouldn't even make the NAIA, who ruins his career.

Beating someone to the spot, thus gaining legal guarding position, is certainly one of the cornerstones of good defense. No matter what "gifted athlete" you are, you better look where you are going.

Along these lines, this is one of the things I like about basketball, as compared to other sports. If you have no athletic ability at all, if all you can do is stand and take up space, if you take up the right space, you can sometimes help your team.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Beating someone to the spot, thus gaining legal guarding position, is certainly one of the cornerstones of good defense. No matter what "gifted athlete" you are, you better look where you are going.

Along these lines, this is one of the things I like about basketball, as compared to other sports. If you have no athletic ability at all, if all you can do is stand and take up space, if you take up the right space, you can sometimes help your team.

Additionally, who IS the "secondary defender"? If you change the rules for time and distance based on such a definition, you'd have a real judgement mess....is it the primary defender? is it the secondary? was it the secondary that is now the primary (at what time does that occur)? etc....????? There would be so many 'what ifs' that it could never be called consistently or predicatbly.

The offense would want everyone to be declared a secondary defender so that could either easily pass by all defenders or run over all of them without getting a foul.

Imagine a zone defense...they're all sort of secondary defenders.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Old School

I think we're screwing the wrong guy. I think the shooter life is put in jeopardy and he's also tag for the foul. The defender did not try to play defense, he tried to beat him to the spot. That is not playing defense. I'm telling you if our founding father was alive, he would say somebody is asleep at the wheel here. The issue is the athlete is so much quicker, now you mix in a gifted D1 scholarship athlete getting beat to the spot by a lower level player who wouldn't even make the NAIA, who ruins his career. Why is it that in this country, we are not willing to do anything until someone is seriously hurt. For ex: we know that intersection needs a stop light but we refuse to put one there until there's a nasty auto accident and someone gets killed. Then you see a stop light go up real quick. That's what's going to have to happen here, unfortunately. Mark my words.

I got the fix too. If you're a secondary defender, time and distance does apply and the shooter needs no more than 2 steps but no less than one. Then we get back to playing defense on this type of play, trying to block the shot or steal the ball, and no more of this non-basketball sh!t stepping in front of a player driving to the bucket to shoot.

Since when did taking a charge not become part of the game anymore? It has been a conerstone in basketball as long as I have been alive and playing the game. It has and always will be taught because everyone and their mother considers it a great defensive play when a player will get to a spot legally before an opponent and give his body up for the welfare of the team.

There will always be kids trying and attempting to take charges in the game of basketball, and inevitably there will be kids who will come in late and undercut another player, which is unfortunate but will still happen and in these cases all we can do is call a block and hope the kid doesn't get hurt.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

That's the writer's point. He knows the current rule. He says that time and distance should matter, because the player cannot change his mind once he gathers for a shot.

No, that's not his point. His point is that he doesn't understand the rule.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Additionally, who IS the "secondary defender"? If you change the rules for time and distance based on such a definition, you'd have a real judgement mess....is it the primary defender? is it the secondary? was it the secondary that is now the primary (at what time does that occur)? etc....????? There would be so many 'what ifs' that it could never be called consistently or predicatbly.

It is not hard at all to determine the secondary defender. If nobody is guarding the person with the ball and he is driving towards the basket, any defense, zone, whatever, is secondary. All situations where this would come into to play would occur at the basket. The NBA calls it the LDB - Lower Defensive Block. This elliminates all the many different what if scenaro's.

The offense would want everyone to be declared a secondary defender so that could either easily pass by all defenders or run over all of them without getting a foul.

This is a stupid statement, nobdy is avocating running over anybody. The issue is running underneath the player with the ball that's driving to the bucket to shoot a layup. The issue is a safety concern for the shooter, the issue is to protect the shooter!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Beating someone to the spot, thus gaining legal guarding position, is certainly one of the cornerstones of good defense. No matter what "gifted athlete" you are, you better look where you are going.

Precisely the point. The reason why you can't get with this logic is because you never played, because if you did, you would certainly change your tune once you go up and someone runs underneath you. The problem here is that once you commit to your move to the bucket, as in the video, you are looking up at the basket. The basket is 10' high and you got a scoring opportunity, and when you made your move, there was no one in front of you. Everything that happens from this point forward is 10' high and above. Now, all of a sudden, someone runs underneath you unexpectingly, and you go awkwardly falling to the floor, possible injury is very likely.

We all reveiwed this video many times. Now I want you to review this video with the safety of the offensive player in mind. Review the contact on this play. Did anybody try to plow anybody over? Was there any contact to the turso? Did the defense try to play defense on this play? Do you recognize the secondary defender? Could time and distance be used as a factor here?

http://www.sportstricities.com/sport...-8578135c.html

Me and the author of the article is in agreement that we want to bring athletism back to this type of play. We no longer want to see another player running underneath a player with the ball about to score. Whatever happen to block the shot, or a steal of the ball. If you can't do these two things, then this play can not be defended. Get out the way before you get somebody hurt.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Old School

The NBA calls it the LDB - Lower Defensive Block.

Believe it or not, Old School got this wrong!! Gasp!! It's the Lower Defensive Box. Bet you can't even tell me how big it is or what it's boundaries are, or how it relates to the block/charge call.