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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 09:35am
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Question

A buddy of mine says there is no difference.

Thanks in advance....


Greg
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 09:51am
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A common misconception is that a charge = a player control
foul and each are commonly called an offensive
foul. But a player control foul is any common foul
committed by the player in possesion of the ball, which
could be a charge, and there is nothing in the rule book
covering a so-called "offensive foul". The player with the
ball or a defensive player or a player on offense can commit
a charge, or any of the other common fouls. On a player
control foul we don't shoot free throws for the bonus so
this is more than just a technicality. But it does count as
both a team foul towards the bonus and a personal foul on
the player. I hope this helps!
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 10:14am
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Dan, I apologize. I'm very thickheaded. I didn't follow your reply. Will you try again? The charging call I'm speaking of is when A has the ball and runs into B who has established position. Can we look at this situation and compare charging vs player control foul?

Thanks for your patience.

Greg
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 10:46am
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I don't officiate by NCAA rules but I don't believe there is a difference in the terminology. I think they both mean the same thing. The player in possession of the ball comitted a foul.

The difference between HS and men's NCAA ball is when a player in possession of the ball has commited a player-control foul. In HS, an airborne shooter who has released the shot and not returned to the floor can commit a player-control foul. In NCAA college, once the shot is out of the shooter's hand, he cannot commit a player-control foul.

The major difference is this then. If A1 shoots and the ball leaves his hand and he then crashes into B1, HS rules won't count the shot (Player Control Foul) but NCAA men's rules will.

I hope I'm explaining this correctly. My terminology may not be exactly correct but I hope you get the idea.
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 11:12am
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Quote:
Originally posted by gregbrown8
Dan, I apologize. I'm very thickheaded. I didn't follow your reply. Will you try again? The charging call I'm speaking of is when A has the ball and runs into B who has established position. Can we look at this situation and compare charging vs player control foul?

Thanks for your patience.

Greg
Greg, being the president of the thickheaded club
I understand what you're going thu so I'll try again
The action you describe is a player control foul.
The signal for this is hand behind the head (you've seen it,
no?) In my original message I said it's a common
misconception that a charge is the same thing as a player
control foul (I used the equal sign). I also said that
some folks call this an offensive foul, but there's
nothing in the rules about an "offensive foul". So here's
the deal: there are 3 types of players on the floor:
defense, offense and the player in control of the ball.
(The rules tell us how to define each of these but don't
worry about how for now.) Any of these players can commit
a common foul (charge, block, hold, push). If the foul
is commited by the player with the ball then we have a
player control (PC) foul. This is a special case because
we don't shoot free throws for the PC if the defense is
in the bonus (don't ask why, it's just that way). But, like
any other common foul, the PC counts as a foul towards the
bonus and as a personal foul towards disqualification.

So, in your case the player with the ball has commited a
player control foul *because* he charged. But, he could
have just as easily (but more rarely) blocked or
held or pushed. In fact, sometimes you'll see the dribbler
clear out with his arm as he dribbles around a player.
This is a PC becase he pushed. But in either case the foul
is a player control foul. Again we care because there are
no bonus free throws on a PC.
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 11:23am
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Dan and Mike, you guys are awesome. Thanks so much. Just found this forum today and I really appreciate your time.

Take Care,

Greg
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 11:31am
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Dan,
I am not clear on why you believe that a defensive player can commit a charging foul. On reading NFHS rules, it is clear that a defender may not commit charging, even though the rules do not make an explicit statement of that fact. The only reference to charging anywhere in the rules (4-2-2 (a-d) and 10-6 (1 & 2)) refer to a player with the ball or a player who has shot and momentum carried him into defender. This is distinguished from pushing in 10-6-1, which happens when the defender runs into an offensive player in control of the ball. Nowhere is charging referenced with respect to any defender committing the foul, nor is that possibility suggested by the rules. While the momentum rule suggests there may be a subtle case in which a charging foul may not be player control (in the reference to momentum it does not say airborne shooter), in all other cases, a charge would be player control.

Technically speaking, you can have player control fouls that are not charges where the contact is not with the torso (an elbow to the face would qualify I guess). But any illegal contact with the torso by the player in control of the ball is charging. So the terms are fairly interchangeable in NFHS. The only difference between NCAA and NF that I know of is the airborne shooter rule which Mike referenced. Since this changes when you can call a PC foul, it may lead to more instances where charging is not PC - but I'd have to see an NCAA rule book to know whether they call a foul after release a charge. And I am not aware of a different NCAA definition of charging that allows a defensive player to commit this foul.
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 11:56am
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Lightbulb NCAA Definition

Quote:
Originally posted by gregbrown8
A buddy of mine says there is no difference.

Thanks in advance....


Greg
Greg,

Rule 4-8 Charging
Art.1 Charging is illegal personal contact by pushing or moving into an opponents torso.


So, if you charge with control of the ball, it is a player control foul.
If you charge without the ball, it is a common, intentional, or flagrant foul.
Ultimately, charging may be the same thing, only different.

mick

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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Dan,
I am not clear on why you believe that a defensive player can commit a charging foul. On reading NFHS rules, it is clear that a defender may not commit charging, even though the rules do not make an explicit statement of that fact. The only reference to charging anywhere in the rules (4-2-2 (a-d) and 10-6 (1 & 2)) refer to a player with the ball or a player who has shot and momentum carried him into defender. This is distinguished from pushing in 10-6-1, which happens when the defender runs into an offensive player in control of the ball. Nowhere is charging referenced with respect to any defender committing the foul, nor is that possibility suggested by the rules. While the momentum rule suggests there may be a subtle case in which a charging foul may not be player control (in the reference to momentum it does not say airborne shooter), in all other cases, a charge would be player control.

Technically speaking, you can have player control fouls that are not charges where the contact is not with the torso (an elbow to the face would qualify I guess). But any illegal contact with the torso by the player in control of the ball is charging. So the terms are fairly interchangeable in NFHS. The only difference between NCAA and NF that I know of is the airborne shooter rule which Mike referenced. Since this changes when you can call a PC foul, it may lead to more instances where charging is not PC - but I'd have to see an NCAA rule book to know whether they call a foul after release a charge. And I am not aware of a different NCAA definition of charging that allows a defensive player to commit this foul.
Since I don't have my book here with me I can't argue this
subtle point but I will say that the push & charge signal
are the same. I realize this doesn't address what you're
saying but in practice there's in fact no difference. I'll
get back to you after I look at the book. As for your
second pont, I did give a specific example of a PC that is
*not* a charge, but a push. Another case is the almost
unseen ilegal screen by the ball handler, which might be
a block or maybe hold. So I think I've shown how a PC
could be something other than a charge (the big torso-to-
torso bodies crashing to the floor that we all know & love)
A case of a charge that is *not* PC is the pass & crash.
Finally, the difference in the airborne player rules between
HS, NCAA men & NCAA women does kinda complicate things
but I don't think it has all that much to do with the
original question ("Is there a difference between a PC
and a charge").

Good discussion!
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 01:23pm
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I don't see your example as anything but a charge. Rule 4-7-2 defines charging. Parts a-d give examples of situations that are charging.

d. The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage to pass, shoot or dribble.

Your push-off, when done by a player with the ball, is a charge by rule and PC.
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I don't see your example as anything but a charge. Rule 4-7-2 defines charging. Parts a-d give examples of situations that are charging.

d. The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage to pass, shoot or dribble.

Your push-off, when done by a player with the ball, is a charge by rule and PC.
I don't see how finding examples of a PC that is a charge
means that a PC is by definition a charge, or vice versa.
Because they are not. There are examples of PC fouls that
are not charges and there are charges that are not PCs.
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 03:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikesears
The difference between HS and men's NCAA ball is when a player in possession of the ball has commited a player-control foul. In HS, an airborne shooter who has released the shot and not returned to the floor can commit a player-control foul. In NCAA college, once the shot is out of the shooter's hand, he cannot commit a player-control foul.
Thanks for this... it saves me asking about a couple of plays I saw today in the Gonzaga-Virginia game, which I was unsure about. Now instead of asking, I can nod knowingly, or better yet, correct someone else when they mention it!! Just another reason to stay on this web...
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 04:38pm
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Re: NCAA Definition

Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Rule 4-8 Charging
Art.1 Charging is illegal personal contact by pushing or moving into an opponents torso.
OK, with that definition, that brings me to a question...
A1 has the ball dribbling toward the basket. A2 has set up a screen for B1 who is closely guarding A1, B1 doesn't see the screen and plows right into him (see this all the time). Acc. to the above mentioned rule, that would be illegal contact by moving into an opponents torso. So, do you call it or is it a no-call

--Denny
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 05:17pm
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dhodges
Have to look at advantage/disadvantage on that call or no call, as well as severity of the contact. If B1 plows over A2 and gains a defensive advantage, should be a pushing foul in NFHS and perhaps a charge in NCAA (not clear as to context in NCAA rule that Mick gave). If A2 manages to prevent B1 from getting through, then B1 gained no advantage, so you wouldn't call it unless he has a particularly hard foul that you feel needs to be called. Incidental contact.

Dan,
I have already agreed that not all PCs are charges, and not all charges are PCs, especially in the NCAA. All I was addressing was 1) your statement that defenders can commit charging (they cannot, at least in NF) and 2) your example of a non-charge player control foul. To commit a charge, you must either have the ball or have recently released the ball with momentum carrying you into the defender, so defenders and offensive players moving off the ball cannot commit a charge. However, to be clear, grabbing with the off hand would be a hold and PC but not a charge, and pushing or striking the other player other than in the torso is also not a charge but is PC. By NF rules, 99% of calls that are defined as charging are also PC, and probably over 95% of what is called as PC is a charge. So I was merely trying to show why these terms are used so interchangeably, and in most cases, correctly so.
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Old Fri Mar 16, 2001, 06:09pm
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easy rule of thumb

If a player has the ball and commits a foul, it is a player control foul. If a player without the ball pushes or crashes through a player of the other team, it is a pushing foul.

If a player who has had the ball, then passes the ball off just prior to crashing into a player of the other team and fouling, commits a "pushing foul" this would be considered a charging foul. (NFHS and Womens NCAA) (For Men's NCAA, releasing the ball on a try prior to crashing into defender would fall into this category also.)

If a player commits a PC foul, there can be no free throws for the foul. If a player commits a charging foul, there can be free throws if the other team is in the bonus.

Do not call a charge on the defense! The criteria is the same as a push, so use the PUSH when reporting to the table.
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