NBA Charge Foul rules

[Jimgolf]

I ran across this article by Dennis Hans of HoopsHype as a link from an article today about what's wrong with the NBA's officiating (not the officials, BTW, but the instructions from their supervisors). It's from last December, so if it's been mentioned before, forgive me, since a search on the forum didn't turn up anything.

In a letter to Ronnie Nunn, Hans suggests that the NBA is being ruined by eliminating the drive to the basket by rewarding flops. By calling so many charges, both the frequency of the drive and the legitimate shot block attempt are reduced. Hans makes the point that the key element in establishing whether LGP is established is whether the defender has position before the offensive player has taken his last step, when in reality the offensive player has to commit to his move on the next to last step. This gives an unfair advantage to the defender, since he step in to take a charge when it's essentially too late for the offensive player to change his mind.

I'm not sure about this, but it strikes me as a novel argument. As a fan, I certainly don't want to see Varajao falling down when he's hit by Earl Watson. What do you think?

Link: http://hoopshype.com/columns/nunn_hans.htm

[Old School]

Article: In the past few seasons we have had the frightening spectacle of help defenders sprinting from the weak side or from under the basket – often directly at the driver – to get planted outside the restricted line a split second before the driver (who may be airborne or about to elevate) reaches that spot. This has led to a number of scary collisions and falls (I'll cite some examples below) and surely has James Naismith rolling over in his grave.

Article: scary falls or collisions don't guarantee a serious injury, but they greatly increase the likelihood. In none of these case do I think the defender intended to endanger the other player. But he had been coached to help-defend in a manner that did just that.

My feeling exactly. If you recall, I defended the block on the block/charge video that sparked a huge debate. One reason is exactly what you and this article is getting at. It's not playing defense, it's playing the rules and endangers the offensive player. Oh, but i was called everything but the son of god for calling this a block. How about protect the shooter.

There was another thread we argued where in the playoff's, similiar play Steve Nash ran up under Tim Duncan in an attempt to drawl the charge. Most stated here they would have called a charge on Duncan. I immediately reasoned (and would have called block) that Nash has no possible change to defend Duncan and this defensive move could have seriously injured Tim, protect the shooter. I wanted to send the message right now if I'm ref'ing in the game, little guy, don't run under big guy and expect to get a call. I'm sending the message don't do that again.

To take this issue forward, we need to start rewarding defensive play on a drive to the bucket when there's contact. IOW's reward the defender if he's going for the ball in an attempt to play defense and there's contact. Often we call a foul on any little contact from the defense on this type of drive or move to the bucket, and we really shouldn't.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

What do you think?

I think that Dennis Hans has approximately the same knowledge and understanding of the rules as Old School. And he should be taken just as seriously as any experienced official here takes Old School.

Lah me......fanboys.......

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lah me......fanboys.......

Why would anyone become a basketball official who was not a fan?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

surely has James Naismith rolling over in his grave.

First of all, Dr. Naismith is not dead. I saw him last week working at a 7-11 in Montana with Elvis. Second, Shirley has nothing to do with it. They broke up over an illegal use of hands call.


It's gotta be meds time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Why would anyone become a basketball official who was not a fan?

I don't know. Why?

The clown that wrote that article hasn't a clue though.

[ATXCoach]

I am the worst kind of coach (an AAU / summer league coach) . I coach girls, and my current team will be 8th and 9th graders.

To go along with the flopping talk previously in this thread - I hate it, I don't coach it, and I hate when it gets rewarded at any level. I teach my bigs to slide over get their arms up and to be a brick wall. Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as they get there first (and the shooter isn't in the air, etc.), then this isn't a foul on the defender. Unfortunately, my bigs are still relatively young and are more like a paper wall. What I mean is that the contact gets them in the stomach or chest, and they end up bending at the hip a little, arms come forward, and they get called for the foul. (the calls are not blocking fouls, they are hacking fouls)

I am at a loss because I feel there are occasions when if they would scream and fall backwards then they would get the charge call, but I won't ever teach that. I feel the defender is set, the offensive player contacts the defensive player, then the defensive player reacts to the contact. It seems like a charge to me.

Obviously I am not saying this happens every time and I know there are times when they get block happy and miss - I get that. Just looking for a rules explanation so I can tweak how I coach, if i need to.

Thanks in advance

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't know. Why?

The clown that wrote that article hasn't a clue though.

Actually JR, you are the one that doesn't have a clue. No doubt your knowledge of the rules is beyond approach. But you do nothing to better the game. I am a player, and if you have ever had a player run underneath your feet, it is the scariest feeling in the world.

Tell me something JR, have you ever played the game? I hear you defend the rules but I never hear you defend the game. The person that wrote that article is trying from afar to defend the game. Just read the examples you moron. Read how many players have been seriously hurt by this crazy rule that you defend so vividly . the guy that wrote the article maybe a nobody in the business of basketball, but he hit it on the nail when he said Niasmith, the guy that we acknowledge as the one who invented the game, would roll over in his grave if he knew this was happening.

I'm going to go old school on you JR. In the early days of bb, they used a apple bucket for the goal and hung it on the balcony. When the team scored a goal, there was a mad rush up the balcony and to the bucket to get the ball out, which determined who got the ball next. Our inventor saw that this was a problem, not so much who got the ball next, but the fact that someone could get injured trying to get to the ball next. So they cut a hole in the bucket, to allow the ball to fall thru. Eliminated the problem.

You, Julie and most of the rest here are foot soldiers, you do what you are told to do, and you do it well. When it comes to having a clue of what's going on with the game you call, you don't have a clue and you hate on anybody who tries to make it better.

What separates me from you. I have a vision and you can't steal my vision by insulting me or ignoring me. I want to leave the game better than what I found it. I can no longer play but the players are the product, their well being and safety is paramount and the founding father would agree that that rule, who got there first is ridiculous, and it's being taught by the coaches.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

I am a player

AHA! The truth is out. I knew you weren't an official.

Originally Posted by Old School

In the early days of bb, they used a apple bucket for the goal and hung it on the balcony. When the team scored a goal, there was a mad rush up the balcony and to the bucket to get the ball out, which determined who got the ball next. Our inventor saw that this was a problem, not so much who got the ball next, but the fact that someone could get injured trying to get to the ball next. So they cut a hole in the bucket, to allow the ball to fall thru. Eliminated the problem.

Where do you get this crap? First of all, they used peach baskets, not apple buckets. Second, after a goal, the ball was retrieved and a jump ball was held for the next possession. The rule about being the first to get the ball had to do with when the ball went OOB, not into the basket. Eventually, cages were built around the floor so the ball wouldn't go up into the stands, which is why basketball players were referred to as "cagers" for many years.

Originally Posted by Old School

You, Julie and most of the rest here are foot soldiers, you do what you are told to do, and you do it well. When it comes to having a clue of what's going on with the game you call, you don't have a clue and you hate on anybody who tries to make it better.

Uh-oh, you insulted Juulie (and you misspelled her name). Our truce is off. Why don't you just go up into the hills somewhere and practice cliff diving?

[BillyMac]

Dr. Naismith's Original Thirteen Rules Of Basketball.

1. The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.

2. The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands (never with the fist).

3. A player cannot run with the ball. The player must throw it from the spot on which he catches it, allowance to be made for a man who catches the ball when running at a good speed if he tries to stop.

4. The ball must be held in or between the hands; the arms or body must not be used for holding it.

5. No shouldering, holding, pushing, tripping, or striking in any way the person of an opponent shall be allowed;the first infringement of this rule by any player shall count as a foul, the second shall disqualify him until the next goal is made, or, if there was evident intent to injure the person, for the whole of the game, no substitute allowed.

6. A foul is striking at the ball with the fist, violation of Rules 3,4, and such as described in Rule 5.

7. If either side makes three consecutive fouls, it shall count a goal for the opponents (consecutive means without the opponents in the mean time making a foul).

8. A goal shall be made when the ball is thrown or batted from the grounds into the basket and stays there, providing those defending the goal do not touch or disturb the goal. If the ball rests on the edges, and the opponent moves the basket, it shall count as a goal.

9. When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play by the person first touching it. In case of a dispute, the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds; if he holds it longer, it shall go to the opponent. If any side persists in delaying the game, the umpire shall call a foul on that side.

10. The umpire shall be judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive fouls have been made. He shall have power to disqualify men according to Rule 5.

11. The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it belongs, and shall keep the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made, and keep account of the goals with any other duties that are usually performed by a referee.

12. The time shall be two 15-minute halves, with five minutes' rest between.

13. The side making the most goals in that time shall be declared the winner. In case of a draw, the game may,by agreement of the captains, be continued until another goal is made.

[Adam]

Well, we may have a clue as to Old School's real name now. My guess? Ah, never mind. I'll go back to just correcting the errors now.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I am the worst kind of coach (an AAU / summer league coach) . I coach girls, and my current team will be 8th and 9th graders.

To go along with the flopping talk previously in this thread - I hate it, I don't coach it, and I hate when it gets rewarded at any level. I teach my bigs to slide over get their arms up and to be a brick wall. Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as they get there first (and the shooter isn't in the air, etc.), then this isn't a foul on the defender. Unfortunately, my bigs are still relatively young and are more like a paper wall. What I mean is that the contact gets them in the stomach or chest, and they end up bending at the hip a little, arms come forward, and they get called for the foul. (the calls are not blocking fouls, they are hacking fouls)

I am at a loss because I feel there are occasions when if they would scream and fall backwards then they would get the charge call, but I won't ever teach that. I feel the defender is set, the offensive player contacts the defensive player, then the defensive player reacts to the contact. It seems like a charge to me.

Obviously I am not saying this happens every time and I know there are times when they get block happy and miss - I get that. Just looking for a rules explanation so I can tweak how I coach, if i need to.

Thanks in advance

Coach. It looks to me, if it's happening as you say it is, that the officials are missing some player control fouls. Hitting the defender in the stomach with enough force to make her bend into the shooter strikes me as either a PC foul or a no-call.

note: I have no reason to doubt that it's happening as you say it is.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I am the worst kind of coach (an AAU / summer league coach) . I coach girls, and my current team will be 8th and 9th graders.

To go along with the flopping talk previously in this thread - I hate it, I don't coach it, and I hate when it gets rewarded at any level. I teach my bigs to slide over get their arms up and to be a brick wall. Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as they get there first (and the shooter isn't in the air, etc.), then this isn't a foul on the defender. Unfortunately, my bigs are still relatively young and are more like a paper wall. What I mean is that the contact gets them in the stomach or chest, and they end up bending at the hip a little, arms come forward, and they get called for the foul. (the calls are not blocking fouls, they are hacking fouls)

I am at a loss because I feel there are occasions when if they would scream and fall backwards then they would get the charge call, but I won't ever teach that. I feel the defender is set, the offensive player contacts the defensive player, then the defensive player reacts to the contact. It seems like a charge to me.

Obviously I am not saying this happens every time and I know there are times when they get block happy and miss - I get that. Just looking for a rules explanation so I can tweak how I coach, if i need to.

Thanks in advance

Personally when I think of flopping, I think of a player falling back even when there was little or no contact, certainly not enough to cause the defender to fall back. However, perhaps your players are overdoing it, anticipating the contact and leaning into it. I think that "be a brick wall" is certainly a sound philosophy for your defenders, but be sure to emphasize verticality, and if heavy contact is imminent, even leaning slightly away to cushion the blow is okay. Moreover, if the contact is sufficient to cause displacement, there is no shame in falling backward, and this shouldn't keep you from getting a call. I strongly agree with you about avoiding the screaming thing.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

To go along with the flopping talk previously in this thread - I hate it, I don't coach it, and I hate when it gets rewarded at any level. I teach my bigs to slide over get their arms up and to be a brick wall. Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as they get there first (and the shooter isn't in the air, etc.), then this isn't a foul on the defender. Unfortunately, my bigs are still relatively young and are more like a paper wall. What I mean is that the contact gets them in the stomach or chest, and they end up bending at the hip a little, arms come forward, and they get called for the foul. (the calls are not blocking fouls, they are hacking fouls)

I am at a loss because I feel there are occasions when if they would scream and fall backwards then they would get the charge call, but I won't ever teach that. I feel the defender is set, the offensive player contacts the defensive player, then the defensive player reacts to the contact. It seems like a charge to me.

Obviously I am not saying this happens every time and I know there are times when they get block happy and miss - I get that. Just looking for a rules explanation so I can tweak how I coach, if i need to.

Thanks in advance

to me coach, you just define why you should flop. You may not agree with it, lord knows there are many things I don't agree with when it comes to the rules. But until they change the rules you are doing your girls a disservice by not teaching them the proper way to defend this play. Remember, flopping is illegal, however, if there's contact and you fall back, I don't like the word flop here, that is not illegal. I saw a similiar play in the USA vs. Argentina Gold Medal game where the big player from Argetina was standing in the lane and Chauncey Billups plowed into him on the drive to the bucket, he stood his ground, and his arms came down, just like you stated, and he got hit with the foul. He then turned and kick that rotating billbroad on the floor and broke it. He was then given a technical and Chauncey shot 4 shots and the USA team got the ball back. FIBA rules suck here but anyway, had he would have sold the contact on contact instead of standing his ground, would have been an easy offensive foul call to make, because they where playing a zone.

If they stand like a wall and a player crashes into them and they hold their ground, chances are, that's going to be a no call. However, if they are bending and the arms fall forward into the shooter, then we got this 2nd thing occurring with the arms coming down into the shooters space, easy foul call to make on the shot. If they flop as you guys call it, or just sell the initial contact, IOW's, give it the Dennis Rodman treatment, the only thing i have to do is verify if there is contact, offense!

If you don't want to teach the contact and fall back (not a flop) teach them to play defense. IOWs go up and block the shot. If it's big on big, you get the desired result with your defensive tactic, but if it's big on small, bigger player need to block the shot instead of trying to hold their ground, imho. Bigger players don't need to be flopping either when a smaller player comes into them.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Hans makes the point that the key element in establishing whether LGP is established is whether the defender has position before the offensive player has taken his last step, when in reality the offensive player has to commit to his move on the next to last step. This gives an unfair advantage to the defender, since he step in to take a charge when it's essentially too late for the offensive player to change his mind.

A stupid and totally wrong argument.

There is no time or distance with regard to establishing legal guarding postion. It doesn't matter what "step" the dribbler is on. All the guard has to do is establish LGP before the dribbler/shooter begins his upward motion. (NBA Comments on the Rules, II. Basic Principles C. Block-Charge)