You make the call, part whatever

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

What bothered me most was the location of the hands of the ref when pulling gold 10 away from the fight.

Believe me, if it was in anyway inappropiate, she would have turned around and lit that ref up as pissed off as she was. I think his reaction was just to grab her and stop the brawl which meant grab anything. I think his reaction was slow but once he realized what was going on, he jumped right in there. Now if this was the men, I ain't grabbing nobody. I would step in between the person getting punch on the floor in an attempt to stop the aggressor and protect the player. If I don't get immediate help from the players, I'm out of there.

I agree, there really is no reason for gold to stand on top of her after she was punched a couple of times like that. It's like she was getting ready to deliver a couple of punches too. That was unsportsmanlike. Off official should have got that one. Now if the crew would have given the 2nd gold girl a T (not a flagrant) for her actions, I would have been extremely impressed with this crew. If they didn't access her a T at all, I would not be mad at them either.

[garote]

Intentional on 10 yellow in the act of shooting..she didn't go for ball look at where her hands are in the last seconds before the shot.

The flagrant on both 10 yellow and 5 red...for the fight and anyone else off the bench

Nothing on 9 yellow look at the film red 4 is the one who knocks the ball out of her hand...

also to the lead official...why are you watching the ball go in from lead???? but even if pre-gamed follow the shooter(protect) not the shot....that's what you have a partner(s) for

IMOHO

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

Believe me, if it was in anyway inappropiate, she would have turned around and lit that ref up as pissed off as she was. I think his reaction was just to grab her and stop the brawl which meant grab anything. I think his reaction was slow but once he realized what was going on, he jumped right in there. Now if this was the men, I ain't grabbing nobody.

So...let me see if I understand you. If you are a male official, it's OK to grab a female player on the breasts but it's not OK to grab a male player anywhere for any reason.

Where do you officiate - the Mustang Ranch?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by garote

also to the lead official...why are you watching the ball go in from lead???? but even if pre-gamed follow the shooter(protect) not the shot....that's what you have a partner(s) for IMOHO

You can't tell that from the video. Although you are correct, if you watched the shooter to the floor, you probably could have prevented the retaliation from gold (never say yellow, only one syllable at least for Fed., don't have a clue for FIBA).

Viewing the breast grab a little closer, the ref grabbed the upper torso of the women to get control of her and get her off the girl on the floor. This guy might have some law enforcement or military training because he defused her or got her out of that situation real nice. He was not grabbing for her breasts. This is a good maneuver to grab the men accept you add locking your hands behind the neck thus severely hindering there arm movement where they can no longer throw a punch, and then take them out of the situation. Highly, not recommended for a men's fight, use with caution.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

Viewing the breast grab a little closer, the ref grabbed the upper torso of the women to get control of her and get her off the girl on the floor. This guy might have some law enforcement or military training because he defused her or got her out of that situation real nice. He was not grabbing for her breasts. This is a good maneuver to grab the men accept you add locking your hands behind the neck thus severely hindering there arm movement where they can no longer throw a punch, and then take them out of the situation. Highly, not recommended for a men's fight, use with caution.

You misspelled "woman", "except" and "their" plus you put a comma in where it is not supposed to be.

Still want to argue that your language skills are better than mine, Old Mule?

[Mark Dexter]

Ejections for Red 5, Gold 10 and Gold 9.

Whether #9 purposely dropped the ball or not, she had no reason to go and straddle the opponent on the ground.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You misspelled "woman", "except" and "their" plus you put a comma in where it is not supposed to be.

Still want to argue that your language skills are better than mine, Old Mule?

Got too many things on my mind but you are right, these are all legitimate mistakes. I suck at writing. I'm glad i don't have to do this for a living. Know where I can get a good keyboard. BTW, you have set the bar pretty high, you have to do this to everybody, not just me. If you do it to just me, then you are just picking on me, which defeats your purpose. If you think I'm bad at writing, you should hear me talk. Nobody can clear a room out faster than me!

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

Got too many things on my mind but you are right, these are all legitimate mistakes. I suck at writing. I'm glad i don't have to do this for a living. Know where I can get a good keyboard. BTW, you have set the bar pretty high, you have to do this to everybody, not just me. If you do it to just me, then you are just picking on me, which defeats your purpose. If you think I'm bad at writing, you should hear me talk. Nobody can clear a room out faster than me!

Low, slow and over the plate....

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

If you do it to just me, then you are just picking on me, which defeats your purpose.

Not necessarily.

OK - truce.

[Raymond]

Didn't we review this play last year in the forum?

The initial foul was a flagrant elbow to the face of the shooter. Then we have a punch to the face.

Lifetime ban!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Should there be any ejections? Or is it just your average run-of-the-mill chickfight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4jijuilsRw

1. Technical foul to Red 5 for the kick to Gold 10's ankle.
2. Technical foul to Gold 10 for the push to Red 5's face.
3. Flagrant technical foul to Gold 10 for the punch.
4. Also considering a technical foul to Gold 9 for taunting.

I'm keeping the acts in 2 and 3 seperate.

Fouls 1 and 2 "offset".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

[1]Technical foul to Red 5 for the kick to Gold 10's ankle.

[3]Flagrant technical foul to Gold 10 for the punch.

You may want to read HFHS rule 4-18-2 some time---"Fighting includes but is not limited to combative acts such as an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting." Also see casebook play 4.18.2. If this isn't a textbook case of that concept, I don't know what is. Red 5 kicks 10 Gold to start it. !0 Gold retaliates with a punch. The rules say that both should go for fighting.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You may want to read HFHS rule 4-18-2 some time---"Fighting includes but is not limited to combative acts such as an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting." Also see casebook play 4.18.2. If this isn't a textbook case of that concept, I don't know what is. Red 5 kicks 10 Gold to start it. !0 Gold retaliates with a punch.

My ruling is that Gold retaliated (to Red's kick) with the face push. Gold's act of the fist punch is a seperate act, and not instigated by the kick. Gold 10 took the time to pause and then had time to prepare and launch her fist to Red's face.

The [wimpy] kick was not to start a fight. It was likely because she (Red 5) thought she was fouled on the play by Gold 10. Gold's fist punch to the face is not in the same ballpark as a wimpy kick.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

My ruling is that Gold retaliated (to Red's kick) with the face push. Gold's act of the fist punch is a seperate act, and not instigated by the kick. Gold 10 took the time to pause and then had time to prepare and launch her fist to Red's face.

The [wimpy] kick was not to start a fight. It was likely because she (Red 5) thought she was fouled on the play by Gold 10. Gold's fist punch to the face is not in the same ballpark as a wimpy kick.

It doesn't matter whether you thought that the wimpy kick wasn't meant to start a fight. The fact is that the wimpy kick actually did start the fight. The severity of the instigating act, a wimpy kick, isn't a factor either, by rule. The case book play points that out nicely by using verbal taunting as an instigating act. If you start a fight--in any way--the rulesmakers want both parties punished equally. If Red 5 doesn't kick Gold 10, that fight doesn't happen.

You'd really let the person who instigated that mess off with a lesser punishment that the person who retaliated? In direct opposition to the intent and purpose of the "fighting" rule?

OK. We disagree completely on that one.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It doesn't matter whether you thought that the wimpy kick wasn't meant to start a fight. The fact is that the wimpy kick actually did start the fight. The severity of the instigating act, a wimpy kick, isn't a factor either, by rule. The case book play points that out nicely by using verbal taunting as an instigating act. If you start a fight--in any way--the rulesmakers want both parties punished equally. If Red 5 doesn't kick Gold 10, that fight doesn't happen.

You'd really let the person who instigated that mess off with a lesser punishment that the person who retaliated? In direct opposition to the intent and purpose of the "fighting" rule?

OK. We disagree completely on that one.

The fact you mention is your opinion. My opinion is otherwise. I believe that Gold 10 had a chance to restrain herself and didn't.

Re: Taunting: it is verbal. Provide a case were both acts are physical.

Yes.

See my interp above.

You're stretching the truth here. I did eject Gold 10, just as you did. So, there's not a complete disagreement.