Backcourt Question

[bigdog5142]

I've never gotten this straight in my head...I've been on a officiating hiatus for about 8 yrs...coached for awhile...now I'm back to officiating.

#1 Team A is inbounding the ball...A1 throws the ball to A2 who jumps from the frontcourt into the backcourt...violation?

#2 A1 is bringing the ball upcourt and is in the backcourt. A1 passes the ball to A2 who has jumped from the frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt...violation?

I've thought it through and thought that in #1 the throw-in isn't completed until the player touches the floor...thus, no possession has been established in the frontcourt. In #2, all three points have not crossed the half-court line (ball and both feet), so no violation here, either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[blindzebra1]

#1 no violation

#2 violation

[CLH]

Blind Zebra is not so blind after all, he hit this one on the head!!!

CLH

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

I've never gotten this straight in my head...I've been on a officiating hiatus for about 8 yrs...coached for awhile...now I'm back to officiating.

#1 Team A is inbounding the ball...A1 throws the ball to A2 who jumps from the frontcourt into the backcourt...violation?

#2 A1 is bringing the ball upcourt and is in the backcourt. A1 passes the ball to A2 who has jumped from the frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt...violation?

I've thought it through and thought that in #1 the throw-in isn't completed until the player touches the floor...thus, no possession has been established in the frontcourt. In #2, all three points have not crossed the half-court line (ball and both feet), so no violation here, either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

You're right about #1 not being a violation, but you've got the wrong reason. When you say that a throw-in isn't complete until the player touches the floor, that's incorrect. And it's not the reason that there's no violation in the stated play. The reason (in NFHS) is .... darn it, I can't find the dag-nabbit citation, but there's an exception written into the rules that says that a player from the team in control can catch the ball while in mid-air, having jumped from that team's frontcourt, and land in the backcourt, and it's not a violation.

In #2, it's a violation. The three point rule only applies to a player dribbling from backcourt to frontcourt. In your play, the ball begins with backcourt status. It is then passed to A2 who has frontcourt status, even while in the air since he jumped from the frontcourt, so when the ball touches A2, it attains frontcourt status. Now when A2 lands in the backcourt, the ball has backcourt status again. Tweet!

[Nevadaref]

rainmaker is correct, except that she left out the word NOT in her post while answering part 1.
Here is the rule citation:

RULE 9
SECTION 9 BACKCOURT
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.
ART. 3 . . . A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.
PENALTY: (Section 9) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

Violation in both cases. Ball hitting official = ball striking the floor at that officials' position.

[crazy voyager]

I don't agree, yes the ball has "hit the floor" when it hits the official. But there's never been control established in the front court (the ball striking the floor doesn't mean the team has touched the ball in the fc). Therefore no violation should be called
for a bc the follwing 3 things must happen:
1 The team is the last to touch the ball in the fc
2 The team is the first to touch it in the bc
3 The team has control of the ball at the time

And unlike the NFHS fiba has no exception regarding bc during a throw in (not from what I know anyway). The case discribed at the top is a bc under fiba rules.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Violation in both cases. Ball hitting official = ball striking the floor at that officials' position.

It's not a violation in case # 2. The ball was not touched in the backcourt by team A. The ball bounced off of the official and went back into the frontcourt. That is where A1 picked up the ball. At least it's not a backcourt violation. However, he better not dribble again or I believe its a violation.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

I don't agree, yes the ball has "hit the floor" when it hits the official. But there's never been control established in the front court (the ball striking the floor doesn't mean the team has touched the ball in the fc). Therefore no violation should be called
for a bc the follwing 3 things must happen:
1 The team is the last to touch the ball in the fc
2 The team is the first to touch it in the bc
3 The team has control of the ball at the time

And unlike the NFHS fiba has no exception regarding bc during a throw in (not from what I know anyway). The case discribed at the top is a bc under fiba rules.

It is a violation in case 1. Look at ART 2 of the rule. Control in the front court is not required.

ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.

Which part of this rule is not applicable?

Case 1 says

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt [TEAM CONTROL IN BACKCOURT] throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt [BALL HAS GONE FROM BACKCOURT TO FRONTCOURT] and rebounds to the backcourt [BALL HAS RETURNED TO BACKCOURT] where A4 catches it. [A4 WAS THE FIRST TO TOUCH IT IN THE BACKCOURT].


Violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rwest

It is a violation in case 1. Look at ART 2 of the rule. Control in the front court is not required.

ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.

Which part of this rule is not applicable?

Case 1 says

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt [TEAM CONTROL IN BACKCOURT] throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt [BALL HAS GONE FROM BACKCOURT TO FRONTCOURT] and rebounds to the backcourt [BALL HAS RETURNED TO BACKCOURT] where A4 catches it. [A4 WAS THE FIRST TO TOUCH IT IN THE BACKCOURT].


Violation.

exactly. And, by similar measures play 2 should be a violation as well. That said, I seem to remember someone writing Mary Strukhoff about this (second)play and she intoned that it was not a violation, and indicated that it would be reviewed at the rules meeting. Maybe we'll see something in the new rules / case books.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

exactly. And, by similar measures play 2 should be a violation as well. That said, I seem to remember someone writing Mary Strukhoff about this (second)play and she intoned that it was not a violation, and indicated that it would be reviewed at the rules meeting. Maybe we'll see something in the new rules / case books.

Why? Don't they have to touch it in the backcourt for it to be a violation? Doesn't the ball have to have backcourt status? In case 2 neither has occurred. The ball has re-established frontcourt status and player A1 has touched it in the frontcourt.

Where's the violation?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rwest

Why? Don't they have to touch it in the backcourt for it to be a violation?

I don't believe so.

I think that the criteria that crazy voyager laid out above are slighlty incorrect (at least for NCAA and FED -- FIBA might be different):

1) Team Control

2) Ball reaches the FC (note that player control in the FC is not required)

3) A last to touch before ball goes to BC (note that touching in the FC is not required)

4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC (note that touching in the BC is not required).

A simpler play that Nevada's second play is: A1 dribbles the ball into the FC and is trapped by the defense near the division line. A1 bounces a pass across the court to A2. The ball bounces on the division line and A2 then catches the ball while standing in the FC.

I'd have a violation on this play.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

rainmaker is correct, except that she left out the word NOT in her post while answering part 1.
Here is the rule citation:

RULE 9
SECTION 9 BACKCOURT
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.
ART. 3 . . . A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.
PENALTY: (Section 9) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

You're right, Nevada. I was thinking that the wording was specifically that the team in control could never do this... EXCEPT during a throw-in. I looked and looked for the word EXCEPTION and couldn't find the reference. Now, I've learned something new. THanks.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court.
Start of dribble.
However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.
End of dribble. Since A2 was dribbling, 3 point rule applies...no BC violation????? (or am I overthinking this?)