something that always bugs me

[Slider]

I must ask some final questions (this has been bugging me):

If the the individuals with "higher mentalities" are so infuential, why don't they go through proper channels and have the rules changed to their way of thinking?

Could it be that they thirst for power they can't achieve legitimately, so they undermine the system by setting up a clique that cloaks itself in legitmacy? They say, it's for a "better" game, by "enlightened" officials. Then the ones who follow them feel special because they are "enlightened" also.

I wonder.

[Bart Tyson]

I want to try to end this. Bottom line, we all answer to a supervisor.

[DrakeM]

"I think we are beating a dead horse. certain parties on both sides are not going to change how they call this play. It obviously works in the games each of us officiate."

Why do I feel a massive wave of Deja vu coming on?
Bart Tyson's comment quoted above, to me,says it all.
Eli,Crew,myself,bbarnaky, and many other officials have similar philosophies when it comes to this play.
We like it! It works for us in the games we ref!
It works for the players and coaches in the games we work,
and (perhaps) more importantly, it works for our Supervisors! I do not believe that any of us "elightened"
officials have said that those who call it "by the book"
are wrong! We are simply offering our opinions based on our experiences.
As I have said before, both methods are legitimate ways to call, based on your level!
This board is, and has always been about offering individual
viewpoints on rules, plays etc., in an attempt to educate and improve those who chose to visit.
I have found it very valuable over the years.(even though I have been publicly flogged on more than one occasion.)
Let's stick to constructive arguments and stay away from personal attacks. Hell, we're the only people who undertand why we do what we do. It's a rather unique fraternity.
Let's enjoy it!
Drake

[Slider]

Of course it works, I can get togther with a bunch of buddies and modify the rules any way I like, and it will work: What are the limits of this RULING-by-WHIM?

BTW, if you know a supervisor is wrong, shouldn't you be working at eventually changing his mind?

Also, if it sounds like I attacked you in my previous post, then you must have a guilty conscience; I attacked people with a certain mindset.


[Edited by Slider on Jan 24th, 2002 at 01:59 PM]

[crew]

Originally posted by Slider
I must ask some final questions (this has been bugging me):

If the the individuals with "higher mentalities" are so infuential, why don't they go through proper channels and have the rules changed to their way of thinking?

Could it be that they thirst for power they can't achieve legitimately, so they undermine the system by setting up a clique that cloaks itself in legitmacy? They say, it's for a "better" game, by "enlightened" officials. Then the ones who follow them feel special because they are "enlightened" also.

I wonder.

slider this is a personal attack on everyone who disagrees with you on this play. as drake said we are only offering our point of view on the play, take it or leave it. you obviously do not agree with us. please maintain professionalism and keep the personal comments to yourself or private conversation. thankyou.

[w_sohl]

Lets kill this thread already, I'm tired of getting the posts on this one......lol

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by crew
another reason why i call a block on a player hanging out under the basket is because a lot of the time an offensive player will make a great move to beat his primary defender and make a great play to the basket. i am not wiping this play with an offensive foul because some secondary defender is standing under the basket doing nothing. fans, coaches, even myself, want to see these plays occur.

Crew, I can understand not calling the PC because of the philosophy that defending under the basket is not "legitimate" defense. I don't agree with that philosophy, but I can see that there is an argument for it.

However, you're not going to call a foul because it would make the game less exciting!!?!?!?!????!?!??!? WTF are you saying!!!!!???????????? Do you tell your supervisor "A1 traveled, but it was an interesting move so I let it go?" I cannot believe that any official would actually admit to following this sort of philosophy!! Whether you want a play to occur should not factor into the equation. What the fans and coaches think DEFINITELY should not be a factor.

Remember what Hank Nichols says: Style of play will NOT dicate officiating!

[crew]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Crew, I can understand not calling the PC because of the philosophy that defending under the basket is not "legitimate" defense. I don't agree with that philosophy, but I can see that there is an argument for it.

However, you're not going to call a foul because it would make the game less exciting!!?!?!?!????!?!??!? WTF are you saying!!!!!???????????? Do you tell your supervisor "A1 traveled, but it was an interesting move so I let it go?" I cannot believe that any official would actually admit to following this sort of philosophy!! Whether you want a play to occur should not factor into the equation. What the fans and coaches think DEFINITELY should not be a factor.

Remember what Hank Nichols says: Style of play will NOT dicate officiating!

mark,
you are taking what i have said to an extreme. i am speaking of this particular play and none other.
this philosophy applies to only the situation i address.

[Slider]

Originally posted by crew
[/B]slider this is a personal attack on everyone who disagrees with you on this play.[/B]

Not at all, this is an attack on people who don't follow black and white, clear-cut guidance in the rule book, and claim a higher mentality; if they are only doing it to keep their job, I sympathize with those people.

But everyone who is purposely disregarding rules should, at the very least, be actively working to change those rules; OR they should change their officiating to match the rules.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by crew
mark,
you are taking what i have said to an extreme. i am speaking of this particular play and none other.
this philosophy applies to only the situation i address.

I'm taking it to an extreme because this is extreme. No matter what the situation, letting a player get away with an illegal action because it "looks good" is as bad as penalizing a legal action that "looks bad." We can't let ourselves get carried away with the excitement and emotions of the game - that is why there are coaches.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by crew
another reason why i call a block on a player hanging out under the basket is because a lot of the time an offensive player will make a great move to beat his primary defender and make a great play to the basket. i am not wiping this play with an offensive foul because some secondary defender is standing under the basket doing nothing. fans, coaches, even myself, want to see these plays occur.

If A1 cannot complete his drive to the basket without making illegal contact with B2 who has a legal position on the court then A1's great play is not very great.

This is the problem with many officials, mistaking an athletic move for skillful play. It does not matter how athletic a player is, if that athletic player cannot use his/her athleticism skillfully. I am sorry Crew, you are wrong if you incorrectly call a block on a defensive player who has a legal position on the floor and not the charge on the offensive player. Unless the rules are changed you will be always wrong. This is not a matter of using common sense or how coaches and supervisors want the game called. This is understanding the rules and applying them correctly.

There is nothing in the rules that can defend the position of officials who call a block on the posted play if the defender legally secured his position before the offensive player went airborne. And it troubles me (as well as members of the basketball officiating community that are far more learned than me) that there are officials who are promoting this type of incorrect officiating. I know that some of you make think that I am on a Dennis Miller rant but until the rules are changed a block cannot be called on the defender in this case.

I am trying to be as polite as possible without going nuclear. But some officials need to get with the program.

[DrakeM]

"BTW, if you know a supervisor is wrong, shouldn't you be working at eventually changing his mind?"

Hey, Slider.
Tell you what. You tell a Supervisor that the way he wants you to call a game in his league is wrong, and see how long
you work in that league!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Tell you what. You tell a Supervisor that the way he wants you to call a game in his league is wrong, and see how long you work in that league!

I don't always agree with Drake, but I have to admit that I sort of chuckled at Slider's comment, too. If you don't like the way you're expected to call the game, then don't take the assignment. If you really feel compelled to "straighten out" the assignor, then make sure the door doesn't hit you on the butt on your way out.

Chuck

[DrakeM]

Chuck,
Be careful! You may have just taken the first step
towards the "dark side!" All we need is a little opening,
and WHAM!

[Kelvin green]

Luke.... Luke... (Or is that Chuck... Chuck) the dark side is calling and it wont be long until you have joined those forces of the evil empire...Once you are seduced by the dark side no one will be able to control your darkness and allegiance to the Emperor.

The dark side's influence is everywhere. The Emperor's forces have started to open the door, oh yes the dark side has allowed us to bounce balls to players instaed of hand it in every time. One of these day's the long switch may lose itself to the evil one. Interrupted dribble is dangerously close to the evil side's "loose ball"

Be careful of it's influence. You might forget to put your hand up on a violation, or make an OOB call by pointing straight out (without the hand up stopping the clock). You might not bird dog every play. You might call the OOB on the lead's line when he is watching off ball and it skips out above the FT line extended. You might not make it to the sacred alter of the reporting box to report your foul. You might not put your fist up when calling a player control foul...
On no where's Yoda, and Obi-wan when we need him to ward off the forces of the dark side...