something that always bugs me

[Ralph Stubenthal]

This is not something that I've seen happen but what if: A1 is a really lethargic kid who on defense is just standing like a statue in the paint. He is not moving so much as an eyelash and has been there in that position since B1 crossed the division line into frontcourt. Remember, this is hypothetical. After a few passes, B1 drives into the paint with the ball and crashes into the side of A1. A1 never obtained nor maintained legal guarding position but he did have his spot on the floor that he was entitled to by rule long before B1 came in and knocked him out of it. What would you have, no call, block, or charge?

[JRutledge]

A1 I assume in this play is the defense? Usually A1 is the offense or the team with the ball at the start of these kind of plays. So that is my first confusion. Then you are saying that B1(offense in this play) comes in an knocks over A1(defense in this play).

If that is the case, you have a foul if B1 just knocked A1 over. And it really does not matter who is on offense or defense this should be a foul and a rather easy one to call. And since you said the B1 has the ball, it is a PC foul. Especially because A1 was just standing there and got knocked over by B1 that had the ball.

My question to you is, why would A1 in this play not have established Legal Guarding Position?

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

A1 has not obtain(NFHS)/established(FIBA/NCAA) legal guarding position becuase to do that he had to orginial face B1 when taking his position on the court. But A1 has secured a legal position on the court and therfore is setting a legal screen.

And for all of you who are scratching your heads about a defensive player setting screens, the definition of guarding specifically defines it as something done by the defense. The definition of screening makes no disctinct between offensive or defensive players and specifically notes that the player with the ball can even set a screen.

[crew]

ralph,
my opinion on this is:
1 if he is standing deep in the lane(nearly under the basket) and makes no attempt to defend the shot- no call or block.
2 if he is standing away from the basket-no call or charge.
3 if he is standing deep in the lane(nearly under the basket) and jumps to defend the shot-no call or charge.

i know everyone is about to rip me(because by nf/nc2a men this should be a charge), but this is how i see fit to officiate this play whether it is nf/nc2a men/nc2a women/pro.

[Brian Watson]

Devils advocate Crew-

Ignore where he is on the floor. Being by the basket is immaterial. Let's say he is just standing there minding his own business, watching the cheerleaders and B1 plows him over from the side, do you no call that?

[crew]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
Devils advocate Crew-

Ignore where he is on the floor. Being by the basket is immaterial. Let's say he is just standing there minding his own business, watching the cheerleaders and B1 plows him over from the side, do you no call that?

if the the defender is watching them from the under the basket-i would have a no call or defensive foul.

but that is just my opinion, several people disagree. you can decide for yourself how to officiate the play.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by crew

...
i know everyone is about to rip me(because by nf/nc2a men this should be a charge), but this is how i see fit to officiate this play whether it is nf/nc2a men/nc2a women/pro.

OK. So if you decided to use the NF/NCAA womens rule on an
airborne shooter player control foul in an NCAA mens game
would that be OK? If you decided to use the NF/NCAA men's
10 second count in an NCAA women's game would that be OK?
How about if you decided to use the NCAA women's closely
guarded rule in an NF/NCAA game? Hey, let's make everyone
use the new NCAA womens rule for lining up on free throws.
I know you don't like it but it's what I do. And I like the
way we used to administer FTs, so the C's gonna come in
and handle the first shot.

I aint ripping you, I'm just pointing out how silly this
sounds.

BTW, Mark DeNucci, excellent post in this thread!

[williebfree]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
A1 has not obtained(NFHS)/established(FIBA/NCAA) legal guarding position becuase to do that he had to orginially face B1 when taking his position on the court. But A1 has secured a legal position on the court and therefore is setting a legal screen.

And for all of you who are scratching your heads about a defensive player setting screens, the definition of guarding specifically defines it as something done by the defense. The definition of screening makes no disctinct between offensive or defensive players and specifically notes that the player with the ball can even set a screen.

I think I understand the concept and legality of defensive screens. I also thoroughly re-read 4-23 to see if I could clarify what you presented. I still think this call falls into the area of officials judgment.

Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor, providing s/he is not undercutting an airborne shooter or any other opposing player that becomes airborne, for that matter.

My common sense dictates(Maybe I am off-target here)I have a PC here. Tweet, CHARGE! Am I missing something?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
ralph,
my opinion on this is:
1 if he is standing deep in the lane(nearly under the basket) and makes no attempt to defend the shot- no call or block.
2 if he is standing away from the basket-no call or charge.
3 if he is standing deep in the lane(nearly under the basket) and jumps to defend the shot-no call or charge.

i know everyone is about to rip me(because by nf/nc2a men this should be a charge), but this is how i see fit to officiate this play whether it is nf/nc2a men/nc2a women/pro.

Where's Mark Cuban when you really need him?You really don't own ANY rulebooks,do you?If you ever do manage to come into possession of one(Fed,NCAA,whatever-),see if you can find something to back up your play calling.'Til then....

[crew]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Where's Mark Cuban when you really need him?You really don't own ANY rulebooks,do you?If you ever do manage to come into possession of one(Fed,NCAA,whatever-),see if you can find something to back up your play calling.'Til then.... [/B]

J.R.,
do i ever attack you personally, or accuse you of having poor judgement? i have not. i would appreciate it if you kept your snide little comments to your self or to private conversations, try to maintain a professional approach if you can!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
[/B]

J.R.,
do i ever attack you personally, or accuse you of having poor judgement? i have not. i would appreciate it if you kept your snide little comments to your self or to private conversations, try to maintain a professional approach if you can! [/B][/QUOTE]Crew,it's not personal at all.However,when you post things that are clearly wrong and are indefensible by any rulebook,then,yes,I am going to question your judgement and your rules knowledge.How can you have the exact same call at different points on the floor,and state that they should be called differently?Try this one-consistency!

[LarryS]

Personal request.

If someone is going to recommend handling a situation that has absolutely no foundation in any of the commonly accepted rulebooks please note that in your reply and explain why you feel it is your perrogative to re-write the rules as you go. I am sure there are many like me (rookie) that come to this board in an effort to improve our knowledge and interpretation of the rules. Knowing who consistently makes things up as they go along will allow us to skip your post.

By the way Jurassic, last time anyone saw Cuban he was managing a Dairy Queen in Coppel, TX

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by LarryS
Personal request.

If someone is going to recommend handling a situation that has absolutely no foundation in any of the commonly accepted rulebooks please note that in your reply and explain why you feel it is your perrogative to re-write the rules as you go. I am sure there are many like me (rookie) that come to this board in an effort to improve our knowledge and interpretation of the rules. Knowing who consistently makes things up as they go along will allow us to skip your post.

By the way Jurassic, last time anyone saw Cuban he was managing a Dairy Queen in Coppel, TX

Larry,I think most of us come here to improve our knowledge and keep up-to-date on the rules,whether we're rookies or vets.I come here for the same reason you do.There are a lot of sharp guys on this forum that can help anyone.I can certainly understand mis-interpreting a rule,especially the way that some are written.For the life of me,though,I just can't fathom the idea of calling the same play differently,depending on where the play happened on the court.My point was the same as yours.You can't make your own rules up as you go along.

[crew]

J.R. and Larry,
yes my philosophy goes against the nf/nc2a mens rules. but this is what i have been taught at nc2a mens camps by nc2a mens officials. the logic is good, though the rule book does not support me. this philosophy has been discussed on this board many times by very high ranking officials. (eli roe, drake marques, bbarnaky, etc.) this is a higher level mentality that is accepted by college officials. i do not expect any new official to accept this philosophy because i thought it was bullsh1t when i first heard it as well. hope this defends my position better.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
J.R. and Larry,
yes my philosophy goes against the nf/nc2a mens rules. but this is what i have been taught at nc2a mens camps by nc2a mens officials. the logic is good, though the rule book does not support me. this philosophy has been discussed on this board many times by very high ranking officials. (eli roe, drake marques, bbarnaky, etc.) this is a higher level mentality that is accepted by college officials. i do not expect any new official to accept this philosophy because i thought it was bullsh1t when i first heard it as well. hope this defends my position better.

No,crew,that doesn't defend your position at all.If those other officials call this play the same as you,so be it.I certainly wouldn't agree with them,either.The rulebook(s) state that this specific play is a charge.The only judgement involved would be that you could no-call it,if in your opininion that was the right call.I can even see you and your "high-ranking" friends argueing that it could be a block,or a no-call.That wouldn't bother me,either.That's judgement,too.What bothers me is the philosophy that says that you and your buds would call an exact same play a charge in one spot on the floor,but a block if it happened in another spot.That is neither logical or consistent to me.I might be missing some of that "higher level mentality",though.