Bounce pass to self

[just another ref]

So in a nutshell: A dribble is not a dribble until it returns from the floor to touch the dribbler's hand again.

There is nothing in any book which states this directly.

Case book plays vary from one case to the next on whether the second touch is needed to complete the play.


Can anyone dispute this?

[just another ref]

Tonight we had our sign up meeting. I posed the following question for 5 guys:

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

First guy shrugged. "I don't know. When it hits the floor, I guess."
Second guy said, "I don't know, good question."
The other three guys were in a group. One immediately said, "When it hits his hand." Another shook his head. "No, it would be before that, when it hits the floor." The remaining guy merely nodded. The "hits his hand" guy and the "good question" guy contemplated briefly and then agreed that it would indeed be when it hit the floor.

The thing I got from all these guys was an overriding "never thought about it what difference does it make" sentiment. This supports the idea which someone posted (a hundred posts ago) that if the call is recognized when the ball hits the floor, by the time the whistle sounds, it would most often be back in the dribbler's hand anyway. With all this in mind I am going to pay attention to this call this year and try to notice, if possible, when the official starts to make the call.

No matter how crazy one may be perceived to be by one's surrounding group, there is certainly some degree of security in numbers.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight we had our sign up meeting. I posed the following question for 5 guys:

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

First guy shrugged. "I don't know. When it hits the floor, I guess."
Second guy said, "I don't know, good question."
The other three guys were in a group. One immediately said, "When it hits his hand." Another shook his head. "No, it would be before that, when it hits the floor." The remaining guy merely nodded. The "hits his hand" guy and the "good question" guy contemplated briefly and then agreed that it would indeed be when it hit the floor.

The thing I got from all these guys was an overriding "never thought about it what difference does it make" sentiment. This supports the idea which someone posted (a hundred posts ago) that if the call is recognized when the ball hits the floor, by the time the whistle sounds, it would most often be back in the dribbler's hand anyway. With all this in mind I am going to pay attention to this call this year and try to notice, if possible, when the official starts to make the call.

No matter how crazy one may be perceived to be by one's surrounding group, there is certainly some degree of security in numbers.

Well, it doesn't matter how many agree, it matters who they are and what their authority is. The question of when the violation occurs isn't decided by majority. On the other hand (depending on which one was holding the ball I suppose), if everyone in your area calls it that way, you have to, too. On the third hand, tell me where that is so I can remember not to work there.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef,

We make judgments from the time we walk on the floor until the time we leave. In this case, I'm not judging what he intended to do. I'm judging what he did. In JAR's original play, I have to make a judgment (Not really because JAR told me he was dribbling). Was he dribbling or was he shooting? Honestly, I can't believe that you and Woody truly believe that the officials on this board can't judge the difference in a dribble and a pass.

I plucked this from a seven page discussion we had about a different illegal dribble situation last year. Even though it is taken slightly out of context, I find it startlingly significant.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I plucked this from a seven page discussion we had about a different illegal dribble situation last year. Even though it is taken slightly out of context, I find it startlingly significant.

You're becoming startlingly scary, going back a year to find a statement to take out of context to try and bolster your fantasy. Let it die. Bottom line...no one here agrees with you.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're becoming startlingly scary, going back a year to find a statement to take out of context to try and bolster your fantasy. Let it die. Bottom line...no one here agrees with you.

I was simply looking for some evidence relating to making a call on what is a dribble as opposed to a pass by seeing it. This statement, from Tony, no less, fit the bill quite nicely.

"I can't believe that you and Woody truly believe that the officials on this board can't judge the difference in a dribble and a pass."


You have continued to say you can't be sure it wasn't a pass. Sometimes you can be sure if you see the play. According to your logic a player trapped in the backcourt could "begin a motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball," throw the ball straight up in the air, and retrieve it and start a new dribble, because "that might have been a try."

[Dan_ref]

Because I took the trouble to find it, here's the link

Illegal dribble?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

I think that there are in fact 2 different questions here, and that we can distinguish them. Let's assume that we are indeed talking about an illegal dribble, and that the official judges it to be so, and ask:

1. When does an illegal dribble violation occur?
2. When is an official in a position to judge that an illegal dribble violation occurred?

In that context would the answer to 2 be (c), and the answer to 1 be (a)?

Rationale: The violation occurs when the illegal dribble begins, but we aren't usually in a position to judge that until we know that it's a dribble and not a fumble, pass, etc.

[rainmaker]

you know, looking at the rule book again, and trying to remember back to the dark ages when I studied formal logic, I'm wondering about carefully examining the words used.

The book says that a dribble is ball movement that yadda, yadda, yadda...

It does not say that all ball movement that yadda yadda yadda is a dribble.

Is that significant?

I mean, suppose you said, "A cat is a mammal that has four legs, pointed ears, and eyes that glow in the dark." Could you then say "Look, it's a mammal, has four legs, pointed ears and eyes that glow in the dark so it must be a cat?" Well, no! It might be a lemur, certain types of dogs, and so forth and so on.

Just because a dribble is a certain type of movement doesn't mean that all of those types of movement are dribbles, does it?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

you know, looking at the rule book again, and trying to remember back to the dark ages when I studied formal logic, I'm wondering about carefully examining the words used.

The book says that a dribble is ball movement that yadda, yadda, yadda...

It does not say that all ball movement that yadda yadda yadda is a dribble.

Is that significant?

I mean, suppose you said, "A cat is a mammal that has four legs, pointed ears, and eyes that glow in the dark." Could you then say "Look, it's a mammal, has four legs, pointed ears and eyes that glow in the dark so it must be a cat?" Well, no! It might be a lemur, certain types of dogs, and so forth and so on.

Just because a dribble is a certain type of movement doesn't mean that all of those types of movement are dribbles, does it?

My idea here is that you are now asking "How do you know that the animal on the cat food commercial was not a lemur?"

My answer is "Well, maybe I don't with absolute certainty, but it sure looked like a cat to me. Must we have a zoologist perform a dna test before I can say it is a cat?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My idea here is that you are now asking "How do you know that the animal on the cat food commercial was not a lemur?"

My answer is "Well, maybe I don't with absolute certainty, but it sure looked like a cat to me. Must we have a zoologist perform a dna test before I can say it is a cat?

Nope that's clearly not what I'm asking, and you clearly have no concept of the use of logic, formal or otherwise. Nobody cares what the creature on the cat food commercial is. People do care whether all mammals are cats.

In the case we're discussing, we're trying to figure out what the rules committee means, not what feels right to us. They say that a certain type of motion is the beginning of a dribble. They don't say that that type of motion can only be the beginning of a dribble. So I don't see how you can say that, when they don't.

[rainmaker]

This just in, for those who have some clue of the clout that Howard Mayo pulls in Fed rules world. Yea, he's got his faults, I know that as well as anybody. But his rules interpretations do carry a lot of weight.

Juulie:

Item C would be a violation.

Howard


-----Original Message-----
From: Juulie Downs
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: definition of a dribble


Howard --

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets the sitch and pushes the ball to the floor, as if to start a dribble. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

That's how I'm calling it, and I recommend everyone else does, too, unless your interpreter specifically says otherwise. And even then, I'd argue with him/her for a while.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

you know, looking at the rule book again, and trying to remember back to the dark ages when I studied formal logic, I'm wondering about carefully examining the words used.

Rainmaker, the problem is that the rules committee doesn't have your command of logic or your writing skills.

If it looks like a duck, etc.

The real question is "If a player erroneously begins a second dribble, can he just let the ball bounce by itself until someone picks it up and pretend it was a pass or a loose ball?"

If the rules are unclear, use the duck principle. If it looks like an illegal dribble, smells like an illegal dribble, and quacks like an illegal dribble, call it.

I think an appropriate analogy would be when a player goes up for a shot, but can't get the shot off, so let's the ball fall to the ground to pretend he was dribbling. Do you wait for the player to touch the ball again, or do you just call a travel?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Do you wait for the player to touch the ball again, or do you just call a travel?

By definition, I thought it could have been a bad pass, ...so I pass until more happens.

[Camron Rust]

What the rules say and what is often practiced are sometimes different. This is one of those cases.

I'm with Nevada on this one. The dribble begins the moment the player pushes the ball towards the floor. Sometimes, we can't tell....we give A1 the benefit of doubt and delay judgement to see where the ball goes to make the judgement of whether it was a pass or a dribble. However, it is what it is the moment it leaves the players hands. Sometimes you can tell, sometimes you can't and have to wait.

In the case of the ball that is kicked before it returns to the hand, I have an illegal dribble...it happend first. You're forcing the defender to defend illegal actions and penalizing them for doing so if the kick is called. By allowing the illegal dribble and calling the kick means the offense gets an advantage...the defense has to choose to play the ball and risk a foul or violation or depend on you to blow a belated whistle for the illegal dribble.