Bounce pass to self

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you rule it a fumble, it is still not a violation if she does touch it again after the bounce. This says to me that another touch, in and of itself, is not the determining factor for what is a dribble. If we must determine what is a pass and what is a fumble, why is it unthinkable that we can determine what is a pass and what is the start of a dribble?

My understanding of what Howard meant (and remember, I know him, and I've been arguing rules with him for years), is that you can't tell what it is until you see what happens next. So it's not automatically a dribble or a pass or anything. You have to wait and see.

But just to be sure I'm right, (remember, I've been arguing rules iwth him for years, and I don't always understand him correctly!!) I'll risk annoying him just as he's assigning me all the great games I want, and e-mail him again and double check.

[just another ref]

I posted this yesterday. Perhaps you did not see it JR.

What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."??

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I posted this yesterday. Perhaps you did not see it JR.

What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."??

I'm not JR but I do play one on TV.

The answer is yes. I think you originally posted the question as B1 steals the ball. In that case it's B's ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I'm not JR but I do play one on TV.

The answer is yes. I think you originally posted the question as B1 steals the ball. In that case it's B's ball.

I simply don't get this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I posted this yesterday. Perhaps you did not see it JR.

What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."??

I saw it. It wasn't worth responding to then and it isn't really worth a response now either.

If it'll make you happy though.......

If any player slaps a live ball OOB, the ball is dead and the non-violating team will get the ball OOB at the closest spot to the violation for a throw-in. Do you need me to cite the rule numbers for that also?

[just another ref]

So in a nutshell: A dribble is not a dribble until it returns from the floor to touch the dribbler's hand again.

There is nothing in any book which states this directly.

Case book plays vary from one case to the next on whether the second touch is needed to complete the play.


Can anyone dispute this?

[just another ref]

Tonight we had our sign up meeting. I posed the following question for 5 guys:

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

First guy shrugged. "I don't know. When it hits the floor, I guess."
Second guy said, "I don't know, good question."
The other three guys were in a group. One immediately said, "When it hits his hand." Another shook his head. "No, it would be before that, when it hits the floor." The remaining guy merely nodded. The "hits his hand" guy and the "good question" guy contemplated briefly and then agreed that it would indeed be when it hit the floor.

The thing I got from all these guys was an overriding "never thought about it what difference does it make" sentiment. This supports the idea which someone posted (a hundred posts ago) that if the call is recognized when the ball hits the floor, by the time the whistle sounds, it would most often be back in the dribbler's hand anyway. With all this in mind I am going to pay attention to this call this year and try to notice, if possible, when the official starts to make the call.

No matter how crazy one may be perceived to be by one's surrounding group, there is certainly some degree of security in numbers.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight we had our sign up meeting. I posed the following question for 5 guys:

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

First guy shrugged. "I don't know. When it hits the floor, I guess."
Second guy said, "I don't know, good question."
The other three guys were in a group. One immediately said, "When it hits his hand." Another shook his head. "No, it would be before that, when it hits the floor." The remaining guy merely nodded. The "hits his hand" guy and the "good question" guy contemplated briefly and then agreed that it would indeed be when it hit the floor.

The thing I got from all these guys was an overriding "never thought about it what difference does it make" sentiment. This supports the idea which someone posted (a hundred posts ago) that if the call is recognized when the ball hits the floor, by the time the whistle sounds, it would most often be back in the dribbler's hand anyway. With all this in mind I am going to pay attention to this call this year and try to notice, if possible, when the official starts to make the call.

No matter how crazy one may be perceived to be by one's surrounding group, there is certainly some degree of security in numbers.

Well, it doesn't matter how many agree, it matters who they are and what their authority is. The question of when the violation occurs isn't decided by majority. On the other hand (depending on which one was holding the ball I suppose), if everyone in your area calls it that way, you have to, too. On the third hand, tell me where that is so I can remember not to work there.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef,

We make judgments from the time we walk on the floor until the time we leave. In this case, I'm not judging what he intended to do. I'm judging what he did. In JAR's original play, I have to make a judgment (Not really because JAR told me he was dribbling). Was he dribbling or was he shooting? Honestly, I can't believe that you and Woody truly believe that the officials on this board can't judge the difference in a dribble and a pass.

I plucked this from a seven page discussion we had about a different illegal dribble situation last year. Even though it is taken slightly out of context, I find it startlingly significant.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

I think that there are in fact 2 different questions here, and that we can distinguish them. Let's assume that we are indeed talking about an illegal dribble, and that the official judges it to be so, and ask:

1. When does an illegal dribble violation occur?
2. When is an official in a position to judge that an illegal dribble violation occurred?

In that context would the answer to 2 be (c), and the answer to 1 be (a)?

Rationale: The violation occurs when the illegal dribble begins, but we aren't usually in a position to judge that until we know that it's a dribble and not a fumble, pass, etc.

[rainmaker]

you know, looking at the rule book again, and trying to remember back to the dark ages when I studied formal logic, I'm wondering about carefully examining the words used.

The book says that a dribble is ball movement that yadda, yadda, yadda...

It does not say that all ball movement that yadda yadda yadda is a dribble.

Is that significant?

I mean, suppose you said, "A cat is a mammal that has four legs, pointed ears, and eyes that glow in the dark." Could you then say "Look, it's a mammal, has four legs, pointed ears and eyes that glow in the dark so it must be a cat?" Well, no! It might be a lemur, certain types of dogs, and so forth and so on.

Just because a dribble is a certain type of movement doesn't mean that all of those types of movement are dribbles, does it?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think that there are in fact 2 different questions here, and that we can distinguish them. Let's assume that we are indeed talking about an illegal dribble, and that the official judges it to be so, and ask:

1. When does an illegal dribble violation occur?
2. When is an official in a position to judge that an illegal dribble violation occurred?

In that context would the answer to 2 be (c), and the answer to 1 be (a)?

Rationale: The violation occurs when the illegal dribble begins, but we aren't usually in a position to judge that until we know that it's a dribble and not a fumble, pass, etc.

Hard to argue with your logic, but, I suppose that I still kind of tend to combine the two questions. My idea is by the time the ball touches the floor, usually the official should be able to judge whether it was a dribble and not a pass or a fumble. This goes hand in hand with the definition of a dribble: "a player.....pushes the ball to the floor...." This definition does not mention the ball being touched after being pushed to the floor.