1st 'T', a complement, and a question

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Chuck
Don't know the levels you ref or your experience level, so I don't mean to insult you in any way.

I promise I won't be insulted. I honestly appreciate most of the posts you make here. Bring it on

But my experience has been that the higher level refs and the more experienced refs have mastered communicating with coaches when legitimate questions are asked.

I don't know if I'd use the word "mastered", but for the most part, I'd say that you are correct. As I've indicated in a previous thread, communicating with coaches is not my strongest asset as an official. I work on it from season to season, and I think I've gotten a lot better.

But I do take great issue with your preference that I get my information about Your call from My player, who may or may not know what you called

Coach, the whole premise of my comments is that when I call a T, the player definitely, every single time, without question, absolutely knows what he did to earn it. I don't give T's for ticky-tack whining (unless it's been going on all night despite warnings). So if I bang your player, HE KNOWS the answer to your question. So ask him. What's the big deal?

If I had you in a game in that league and you Td up one of my players and wouldn't tell me why, I'd be on the phone Monday morning.

That would certainly be your prerogative. But I think the call would seem petty.

Coach: I'd like to report that no-good, SOB Chuck Elias!

Assignor: (Deep sigh) What'd he do this time?

Coach: He wouldn't tell me what swear word my kid said to him!

Assignor: That heartless bast@rd!!

Ok, ok. That's a joke, obviously. But is this really a reason for trying to bounce a ref from your league?

If your preference is to avoid communicating with coaches in a heated situation, I believe that is a skill that you should work on because it is an essential skill not only in basketball but in life. Yes, there is potential conflict - deal with it.

Coach, my preference is to avoid a situation that could unnecessarily escalate. If the information you need can be gained without further intervention from me, I think that's the better situation. You can't ask your player why that was a backcourt violation, b/c he doesn't know the rule. You can't ask your assistant coach why that wasn't traveling, b/c he might not recognize a legal jump stop. But you sure can ask your player what he said to earn a T, b/c as I said at the beginning of the post, HE KNOWS.

Ok, now I'd like to ask you a question, and again, I honestly appreciate your contributions to the forum. So please bear in mind that this is a legitimate question, not trying to be a wise-guy.

Why does it matter what he said? The fact is that he should not be addressing the official at all, unless he's the floor captain. If the players are trained to simply keep their mouths shut at all times, then there won't ever be a problem.

It's like what I was taught about police officers. You always do what the officer says. If he screwed up, then you work out his penalty later, but you never give the officer lip while he's addressing you. Never. It only makes things worse. Same thing with an official. You can never make things better by telling the ref what you thought of a call. Never. So if the kid gets tagged, he brought it on himself. What does it matter what he said? It's his own dumb fault anyway.

I'm not saying this as a license for refs to give out cheap T's. Very few of us do that, or even want to. My point is that coaches ought to be more concerned with the fact that the player is mouthing off (since this is a loss of control on the player's part) than about what was actually said.

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 17th, 2002 at 12:09 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

I have to disagree with your premise. I too refuse to answer the "wa-did-he-say???!!!" from coaches with
any details. Sure, most coaches might agree that the T was
valid, but more than once I got back "Is that it!!!? This
ain't a tea party!!" when I attempted to practice the fine
art of communicating in high stress environments. So I now
limit my communications to "he made an inapropriate and
unsportsman like remark". And I only say that if asked.

We do not disagree. Read both my posts. I clearly said that you do not have to answer the "what did he say question." It is sufficient to tell me innappropriate language" and move on. But if you just say T and won't tell me the reason for the T (a push after the play was dead, profanity, dissent, etc.), I have a legitimate issue. Chuck says he can just signal the T, tell the table who it was on, and that he does not have any obligation to tell me what the reason for the T was. I strongly disagree with that premise.

[Rookie]

Coach, I agree with you. I think the right thing to do is walk by and say 'he cursed'.

My main thing is, you are already or near the table to report the infraction, why not stop for 2 more seconds and tell the coach why (if he asks). I think answering a coaches question has more postives, than not answering a coaches question.

If a coach asks why a foul iscalled, if you have an opportunity to explain, what does it hurt?

Chuck, from what I have read, is that your main premise is that the coach is/may attack you. And maybe I am wrong, but I always give the benefit of the doubt. If I answer a question and he then attacks my explanation, you can guess how many more times I am going to go out of my way for that coach again. But he listens, says ok, what was the harm?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

We do not disagree. Read both my posts. I clearly said that you do not have to answer the "what did he say question." It is sufficient to tell me innappropriate language" and move on. But if you just say T and won't tell me the reason for the T (a push after the play was dead, profanity, dissent, etc.), I have a legitimate issue. Chuck says he can just signal the T, tell the table who it was on, and that he does not have any obligation to tell me what the reason for the T was. I strongly disagree with that premise.

You're right coach, we agree.

[Hawks Coach]

By the way, this is 6th grade in the initial situation. Do not expect that all players at that level will know all of the reason that can cause them to get a T. Therefore, don't always expect that "they know what they did." You are an adult, trained in the rules, and you made the call. You know what they did. And don't think that coaches can see or hear all and magically divine what you called on our player in a big crowd of people congregated during a stoppage at the other end of the court.

If we are going to correct the behavior, we need to know what the call was. If you look under player technical, the list is quite long. Just let me know where you are in the list. Saying ask the player does not get me there. And if I am a jerk about it after you have done your job of keeping me informed, there are more technicals for me listed in the same section of the rule book.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
By the way, this is 6th grade in the initial situation. Do not expect that all players at that level will know all of the reason that can cause them to get a T. Therefore, don't always expect that "they know what they did." You are an adult, trained in the rules, and you made the call. You know what they did. And don't think that coaches can see or hear all and magically divine what you called on our player in a big crowd of people congregated during a stoppage at the other end of the court.

If we are going to correct the behavior, we need to know what the call was. If you look under player technical, the list is quite long. Just let me know where you are in the list. Saying ask the player does not get me there. And if I am a jerk about it after you have done your job of keeping me informed, there are more technicals for me listed in the same section of the rule book.

OK coach, I said you're right, now drop it!

BTW, if it's a kiddie game I'll be more helpful if asked
what was said. My previous post only applies to "big kid"
games.

[Hawks Coach]

Sorry Dan, my second successive post crossed with your response!!! anyway, it was more of a general point of clarification as to why this is all necessary and reasonable.

And yes, in kiddie games, usually the coaches even need more help (e.g., who was the 3 seconds on - what game were you watching coach?!)

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Sorry Dan, my second successive post crossed with your response!!! anyway, it was more of a general point of clarification as to why this is all necessary and reasonable.

Coach, I hope I haven't given you the impression that I think you're unreasonable. I don't think you're crazy, and I can understand that in certain situations, you need a question answered by an official. I just disagree that it's "necessary" in the situation that we've been discussing.

Chuck

[Hawks Coach]

So, Chuck, you are of the opinion that a 6th grader sufficiently understands all of the reasons they can get Td up, and therefore, when you issue one without anything more than the signal and the player number, he will be able to tell me why you chose to take this action? I find that hard to believe. And I know you guys think us coaches are all highly evolved geniuses, but we cannot read your mind (we can only read the mind of higher life forms like ourselves!!).

[Dan_ref]

Hey Chuck, I already warned him once, if you don't
take him I will.

[TXMATTHEW05]

I've decided how I will call technicals once I start next season, if I ever have to. Let's say the player was green 50, and slammed the ball down or something:

TECHNICAL FOUL, GREEN SHIRT, 5-0, 5-0 GREEN SHIRT, UNSPORSTMANLIKE CONDUCT.

That's what I would say to the table. Not to much, not to little.

[Rookie]

fouls are reported by color, number, foul.

Green, Five Zero, Technical.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by dblref
17 in one season? I haven't given out that many in 6 years! Oh, wait, is this another of your "I'm on a roll today" postings

College intramural league.

'Nuff said.

[Doug]

Matthews,

this is one of those posts that you should read and listen to some of the responses that expierenced officials will give. you will learn a lot if you take some of the things to heart. It was already posted in a few previous posts, when you call a foul, it is color(green), number(five zero), and the nature of the foul (in this case T).

Always remember when reporting the number, make sure to do your number signals w/ your fingers away from your body. hold your hand off to the side so it is clear. You'll get it, go to games, watch reffs and listen to them!

[Edited by Doug on Jan 17th, 2002 at 03:55 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
So, Chuck, you are of the opinion that a 6th grader sufficiently understands all of the reasons they can get Td up,

No Coach, obviously that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I only give player T's for telling me to F**K OFF, or something equally obvious!! That way, when I give the T, there is NO question what it's for.

Was I unclear about that? The point is not that the player knows every possible reason for the T, but that he's done something so obvious that I am forced to T him. So that when he gets to the bench and you ask him what happened, HE KNOWS!!!

I can't believe that I'm so obtuse that I can't explain this properly. My point all along has been that the player has done something that clearly, without doubt, deserves a technical foul. I don't call T's for looking at me funny or saying "But I never touched him!" When I call a player T, it's for swearing at me or an opponent or making some kind of gesture. And in those situations, the player knows why he got whacked.

Does that help make me seem less arrogant?

Chuck