Throw in kick ball

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I thought that the clock can't start until "the ball is legally touched inbounds". A kicked ball is not a legal touch therefore no time should come off the clock right?

Rule in this case does not say legally touched, only "ball touches or is touched by a player on the court."

But why does starting the clock as per this rule take precedence over 5-8-1 which says stop clock on violation? No one has answered this question as far as I know.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But why does starting the clock as per this rule take precedence over 5-8-1 which says stop clock on violation? No one has answered this question as far as I know.

That question has already been answered several times. How many times does it have to be answered before you'll understand that?

1) The official is supposed to start the clock on a throw-in as per rule 5-9-4 as soon as the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court. There is no provision anywhere in the rules to NOT start the clock.
2) If a player on the court now commits a violation, the official is supposed to stop the clock for that violation as per rule 5-8-1(c).

You simply follow the RULES in order. Whether the touch and the kicking violation are simultaneous or not has got no bearing on anything. You start the clock. You stop the clock.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) The official is supposed to start the clock on a throw-in as per rule 5-9-4 as soon as the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court. There is no provision anywhere in the rules to NOT start the clock.
2) If a player on the court now commits a violation, the official is supposed to stop the clock for that violation as per rule 5-8-1(c).

You simply follow the RULES in order. Whether the touch and the kicking violation are simultaneous or not has got no bearing on anything. You start the clock. You stop the clock.

6-7-9 states: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: a violation occurs.

So you're telling me you start the clock even though the ball became dead on the touch/kick in this case.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I thought that the clock can't start until "the ball is legally touched inbounds".

btaylor, have you gone to the rulebook and read 5-9-4, as Jurassic has suggested?

It would be the same as a player stealing the tap at the start of the game. if time comes off the clock you put 8:00 back on the clock before the inbounding of the ball?

Got a rule reference for that one?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I thought that the clock can't start until "the ball is legally touched inbounds".

Not under NF rules (even though many of us would like it to read that way).

[JRutledge]

Posts like this are the very reason why I cannot stand these rules discussions. It is so funny how people make something so complicated out of something that is so simple. If you do not know what to do, look at what the rules say. If you cannot find something that supports your position, then do not follow it.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

btaylor, have you gone to the rulebook and read 5-9-4, as Jurassic has suggested?


Got a rule reference for that one?

No I haven't. I don't have my high school rulebook. I guess I just took it for granted and thought that this part of the rulebook read like every other rulebook and used the word "legally touched" but I guess it doesn't. Wow that's crazy. I don't guess I will be resetting the clock on the jump ball after all. Thanks

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

No I haven't. I don't have my high school rulebook. I guess I just took it for granted and thought that this part of the rulebook read like every other rulebook and used the word "legally touched" but I guess it doesn't. Wow that's crazy. I don't guess I will be resetting the clock on the jump ball after all. Thanks

You can if you determine the original toss was bad. Other than that....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Posts like this are the very reason why I cannot stand these rules discussions. It is so funny how people make something so complicated out of something that is so simple. If you do not know what to do, look at what the rules say. If you cannot find something that supports your position, then do not follow it.

Look for a discussion on this on the paid side shortly. That oughta staighten all of this out.

Not that I'm cynical or anything.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Got a rule reference for that one?

I do. NFHS rule 5-9-2 says that if play is started by a jump, the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched. If the player steals the tap, that's an illegal touch and the clock should never have started. Soooooo.....under rule 5-10-1, the official has definite information and the clock is reset to 8:00. Iow, Ben's statement as is was correct imo.

[Vinski]

How about this…
I understand JR’s response that by rule the clock must start when touched during the throw-in, legally or not. However, the clock also must stop on a violation such as a kick. Now, as per the OP, these two acts happen at exactly the same time. Soooo, when considering the space-time-continuum, that would equal a total amount of elapsed time of 0.0 seconds. If this is the case, then we would have exact knowledge of the time elapsed (which would be 0 time) and would conclude that the clock should indicate that no time should have come off. When looked at it from this approach we would still satisfy the rule that the clock must start when the ball is touch on the throw-in and that it would be stopped on the violation. These acts just happen to occur at the exact same time.
Alright, let me have it….

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Vinski

How about this…
I understand JR’s response that by rule the clock must start when touched during the throw-in, legally or not. However, the clock also must stop on a violation such as a kick. Now, as per the OP, these two acts happen at exactly the same time. Soooo, when considering the space-time-continuum, that would equal a total amount of elapsed time of 0.0 seconds. If this is the case, then we would have exact knowledge of the time elapsed (which would be 0 time) and would conclude that the clock should indicate that no time should have come off. When looked at it from this approach we would still satisfy the rule that the clock must start when the ball is touch on the throw-in and that it would be stopped on the violation. These acts just happen to occur at the exact same time.
Alright, let me have it….

Since the clock must start and stop, any time that runs off the clock is NOT a timing error and therefore is not subject to the definite knowledge rule.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do. NFHS rule 5-9-2 says that if play is started by a jump, the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched. If the player steals the tap, that's an illegal touch and the clock should never have started.

I just hate it when I'm wrong about little details like that.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Since the clock must start and stop, any time that runs off the clock is NOT a timing error and therefore is not subject to the definite knowledge rule.

5-9-1:........the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.


When does this part apply, somebody, if not in the case in question?

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Since the clock must start and stop, any time that runs off the clock is NOT a timing error and therefore is not subject to the definite knowledge rule.

With that said, it would really come down to how the official signaled the events and what the timer did. If the official simply kept his hand up during the throw-in and ensuing kick and the timer never started the clock, all is well. However, if there was a quick chop and then a hand raised with the clock starting and stopping quickly, we are alright as well according to rule. It would seem to me that what time leally ticks off the clock is dependent on how the officials and the timer react to the play.