Inadv. Whistle Question

[tmp44]

This happened during a game at camp a couple weeks ago....wanted to get y'all's opinion on it.

Team A is shooting a one-and-one FT. AP Arrow belongs to A. First shot hits the back of the rim and bounces high. A1 and B1 both tap the ball simultaneously trying to knock the ball into the backcourt for their team. Ball bounces once close to the division line. After the bounce, A2 jumps from the backcourt, catches the ball, and lands in the frontcourt.

Trail blows his whistle anticipating a backcourt violation, and then realizes that there is not one because of no team control. On the inadvertant whistle, the crew gets together and decides to give the ball back to Team A on account of the AP arrow.

I found out that the crew's thinking was that since no team control existed due to the missed FT and the simultaneously tapped ball, no team control existed at the time the "violation" occurred. Thus, no team control at the POI -- go with the AP.

The clinician on the game was of the opinion that Team A should have received the ball not because of the AP, but because team control started the moment A2 caught the ball, followed by the inadvertant whistle -- POI gives the ball to A. Thoughts?

[Mark Dexter]

The timing involved is a bit unclear from your post. If B2 grabs the ball, then the whistle comes, B should keep the ball here.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tmp44

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The clinician on the game was of the opinion that Team A should have received the ball not because of the AP, but because team control started the moment A2 caught the ball, followed by the inadvertant whistle -- POI gives the ball to A. Thoughts?

When did A2 catch the ball? I don't get that...

[Nevadaref]

You need to edit the original post as you switched around B2 and Team B with A2 and Team A near the end.

That said, this exact play is an issue of contention amongst referees. When the backcourt rule had three specific exceptions, this scenario would not qualify as one of them. However, since the rewrite of the backcourt rule, there is now a solid case to be made that the words as written in the rules book allow B2's action to be legal, since his team was not in control at the time that he became an airborne player.

BktBallRef and I have had a good discussion of this already on this forum. I'll see if I can find the old thread and post the link. Here it is: Throw-in/Backcourt violation?
The bottom line is that if the official believes this is a violation then Team A gets the ball and there was nothing wrong with the whistle. However, if the official believes that this is a legal play, then Team B had control at the time of the accidental whistle and gets to keep the ball via the POI rule.

So not only do I question the rules knowledge of the officials on this game, but they also failed their course in logic.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by tmp44

This happened during a game at camp a couple weeks ago....wanted to get y'all's opinion on it.

Sorry, I don't respond to posts that contain any form of the term "y'all". It's almost like French.

[Adam]

To determine how to administer the throwin, you need to determine when the ball became dead.
When a violation or foul occurs, the ball is dead at the time of violation or foul (except on a shot, but that doesn't matter here.)
Since there was no violation according to the official, then the ball became dead on the whistle. At the time of the whistle, B1 had the ball, so B1 should get the ball for a throwin. No AP.
The clinician was correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So not only do I question the rules knowledge of the officials on this game, but they also failed their course in logic.

Oh, now that's just cold hearted.

[tmp44]

sorry about the typo -- correction is fixed.

And to make clear -- ball is simultaneously tapped by A1 and B1 towards division line after the missed FT by A, ball bounces once, then A2 jumps from the backcourt, catches the ball, and lands in the front court as the whistle blows.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tmp44

sorry about the typo -- correction is fixed.

And to make clear -- ball is simultaneously tapped by A1 and B1 towards division line after the missed FT by A, ball bounces once, then A2 jumps from the backcourt, catches the ball, and lands in the front court as the whistle blows.

If that is the case, then this play is not interesting at all. It is NEVER a violation to jump from the BACKCOURT and land in the FRONTCOURT. It can only be a violation if the player goes the other direction.

The play that is thought-provoking is when A2 goes the other direction. For this case, see my post above.

[btaylor64]

I agree with the clinician. If A has the ball in hand when the whistle blows give the ball to A. If it is loose when whistle is blown, go to the AP.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I agree with the clinician. If A has the ball in hand when the whistle blows give the ball to A. If it is loose when whistle is blown, go to the AP.

That part may well be incorrect. If team control existed before the ball became loose, then there is still team control during the loose ball. Thus going to the AP arrow would be incorrect. POI is still the proper decision.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tmp44

Team A is shooting a one-and-one FT. AP Arrow belongs to A. First shot hits the back of the rim and bounces high. A1 and B1 both tap the ball simultaneously trying to knock the ball into the backcourt for their team. Ball bounces once close to the division line. After the bounce, A2 jumps from the backcourt, catches the ball, and lands in the frontcourt.

2) The clinician on the game was of the opinion that Team A should have received the ball not because of the AP, but because team control started the moment A2 caught the ball, followed by the inadvertant whistle -- POI gives the ball to A. Thoughts?

The clinician was right. A2 established player and team control when he caught the ball, as per NFHS rule 4-12-1&2. A2 had backcourt status when he caught the ball as per NFHS rule 4-35-3. There is no backcourt violation as per NFHS case book play 4.12.2. An inadvertent whistle is now covered under NFHS rule 4-36-1. Team A gets the ball as per NFHS rule 4-36-2(a).

Simple call.

[Nevadaref]

JR, What do you have in the above scenario if A2 jumps from his frontcourt, catches the ball while airborne, and then lands in his backcourt?

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

JR, What do you have in the above scenario if A2 jumps from his frontcourt, catches the ball while airborne, and then lands in his backcourt?

We have covered (or tried to cover) this type of play. 9-9-3 described the back court exceptions. Throw-in, Jump ball and DEFENSIVE intercepting ball.
Ball is live. Ball has front court status and team control has not been established. Now, A2 is not a defensive player. Correct? So when A2 jumps from front court secures control of the ball he/she has front court status and has established team control. A2 violates as soon as the 1st foot touches the back court.
I thought the rules makers were going to rewrite the rules to make this play and a similar throw-in play a legal play.

[Nevadaref]

I thought that I asked for JR's opinion.

You piss off!