Jump stop

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

In my area, the NFHS definition of the Jump Stop is jumping off one foot and landing on two.

That's no different than what's been said here. Why can't you guys get that through your head?

A dribbler jumps off one foot and lands on two feet. That's a JUMP STOP.

If he ends his dribble with his foot on the floor, he cannot pivot.

If he ends the dribble after he jumps, he can pivot.

But both are JUMP STOPS.

But according to you guys, if a player jumps, ends his dribble while airborne and then lands with both feet simultaneously, it's not a jump stop.

If it's not a jump stop, what the hell is it?

[rainmaker]

The easiest thing to say to a coach is "It was indeed a jump stop, but it was the illegal version." Or some such. "Yes, but it wasn't a legal jump stop." That takes the argument away from the terminology, and gets to the heart of the rule, which most coaches don't understand. As BBR said, it matters only WHEN the ball was gathered (or the dribble ended), NOT what the name of the maneuver is.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The easiest thing to say to a coach is "It was indeed a jump stop, but it was the illegal version."

Nope, the two easiest things to say imo are:
1) Coach, that's traveling.
2) Coach, that isn't traveling.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, the two easiest things to say imo are:
1) Coach, that's traveling.
2) Coach, that isn't traveling.

I agree with this response. Trying to explain much else is usually useless to a coach.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

So you're saying that if the dribbler catches the ball with both feet off the ground they may land on two feet or one followed by the other but if the dribble is ended with one foot on the floor they may only land on two feet?

CORRECT. If he lands one foot after another, it's traveling.

Originally Posted by pitchfork

All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass) This terminology, one and two count jump stop while not in the current rulebook has been taught by some of the best coaches since at least the 1930s, and I believe the terms were in the rulebook at one time.60s

Many high school referees call the first example a travel because "it looks like a travel" and because most players at that level can"t execute the move in a leagal manner and it is a travel.

As a ref if you explain it that way most coaches worth having a discussion with will know exactly what you are talking about if they don't you most likely will be wasting your breath no matter what you say.

WTF does a "count" have to do with it?

Personally, I couldn't care less whether the coach understands it or not. I ain't having that convo.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

The funny part about this is that in both cases the player is almost always jumping off of one foot and landing on two, the difference is where they gathered or caught the ball...some of us are just able to recognize this, some apparently not.

Exactly what I was telling Ref from PA above.

[Johnny Ringo]

Boy, a video image of what is legal and illegal here would be great. Anyone out there have the abilty to film what is legal and what is not and post it on the web somewhere?

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The easiest thing to say to a coach is "It was indeed a jump stop, but it was the illegal version." Or some such. "Yes, but it wasn't a legal jump stop."

Actually the "jump stop" is always legal, it's the players movement after the jump stop is complete (either variety) which makes it a legal play or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Actually the "jump stop" is always legal, it's the players movement after the jump stop is complete (either variety) which makes it a legal play or not.

As long as it's correctly executed....
I've called a few travels on the "jump stop" when a player "alights" from one foot but the two feet do not land simultaneously.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As long as it's correctly executed....
I've called a few travels on the "jump stop" when a player "alights" from one foot but the two feet do not land simultaneously.

So you're saying that if the dribbler catches the ball with both feet off the ground they may land on two feet or one followed by the other but if the dribble is ended with one foot on the floor they may only land on two feet?

Is that what 4-44-2b is saying

I stand corrected rainmaker, the "illegal jump stop" Snaqwells described would look awfully weird but I guess where there's a will there's a way.

[pitchfork]

All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass) This terminology, one and two count jump stop while not in the current rulebook has been taught by some of the best coaches since at least the 1930s, and I believe the terms were in the rulebook at one time.60s

Many high school referees call the first example a travel because "it looks like a travel" and because most players at that level can"t execute the move in a leagal manner and it is a travel.

As a ref if you explain it that way most coaches worth having a discussion with will know exactly what you are talking about if they don't you most likely will be wasting your breath no matter what you say.

[Adam]

Wow, this doesn't help me. Then again, I understand the concepts well. You're a little bit wrong on #2, though. The player may pick up either or both feet as long as neither one touches the floor after going up and before the player legally relinquishes player control.

#1 (the 2nd jump stop everyone is talking about), to me, is just a landing. Rebounders do it all the time. The only difference is that with the "jump stop," players are typically moving horizontally as they gather the ball. The definition of this particular move is really not needed in the part of the rule book describing the other jump stop.

What I mean is, the "catch-and-land" jump stop is legal even without this reference. The "catch-leap-and-land" jump stop is not legal without this particular portion of the rules.

The "one count" and "two count" explanations aren't going to help. Coaches who know what it is will either leave you alone or they saw it differently. If an explanation is warranted and time allows, just tell them what they did specifically to warrant the call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

1) All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass) This terminology, one and two count jump stop while not in the current rulebook has been taught by some of the best coaches since at least the 1930s, and I believe the terms were in the rulebook at one time.60s

2) Many high school referees call the first example a travel because "it looks like a travel" and because most players at that level can"t execute the move in a leagal manner and it is a travel.

1) We're making it too hard? I don't have a clue what you're talking about in either #1 or #2. It's confusing as hell. Are you talking about landing on both feet simulaneously in #1, and in #2 landing on one foot followed by the other, or landing on one foot and jumping onto both feet simultaneously?

2) Disagree completely. Do you have any statistics that will back up that statement?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass)

1) I agree that nearly everybody is making this too hard.

2) I don't think the one-count/two-count terminology makes it any easier. That's NBA terminology. I have to admit that I never played college ball, but I've never heard any college coach use that terminology. Even if it is a coaching term, that doesn't mean we should adopt it. No coach ever said to me "That's a good two-count stop!" after a travel call.

3) Officials simply need to learn the rule, without worrying about whether the move is technically a "jump stop" or not.

(a) Catch the ball in the air, and land on two feet -- either foot is the pivot;
(b) catch the ball in the air and land on one foot followed by the second foot -- the first foot is the pivot;
(c) catch the ball in the air and land on one foot, jump and land on two feet -- no pivot.

That's all any official needs to know.

4) I agree that this is called very inconsistently at the high school level.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's no different than what's been said here. Why can't you guys get that through your head?

A dribbler jumps off one foot and lands on two feet. That's a JUMP STOP.

If he ends his dribble with his foot on the floor, he cannot pivot.

If he ends the dribble after he jumps, he can pivot.

But both are JUMP STOPS.

But according to you guys, if a player jumps, ends his dribble while airborne and then lands with both feet simultaneously, it's not a jump stop.

If it's not a jump stop, what the hell is it? Call it what you want, they don't call it a jump stop in Western PA. They would refer to this as a player landing with the ball.

Again, in my area of the country, the teaching for NFHS refs that I have experienced, has only defined the "jump stop" as jumping off one foot and landing on two - using this term as a situation when player may no longer pivot. Maybe we are still in the Stone Age up here. All I was doing was clarifying that the term "Jump Stop" seems to have different connotations in different parts of our nation. Thank you for the education on the broader definition of the term. I will do my best to have the other refs in my area begin thinking along this line.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Again, in my area of the country, the teaching for NFHS refs that I have experienced, has only defined the "jump stop" as jumping off one foot and landing on two -

IIRC, when the term was first used, this is how REFS defined it; COACHS defined it as gathering the ball in the air and landing on both feet". Thus, the confusion.

In general now, the term is used in both ways.