Does this constitute fighting ?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

Are you telling me and everybody else that you would not make a warranted ejection of little Billy because his Grandpa and Aunt Mary traveled 100 miles to see him play for the very first time?

MTD, Sr.

Had a similiar situation where after a mad scrammble for the ball, 2 players down on court. Ball slips away and is now heading in other direction, fast break. I'm old lead going new trail. Because of physical activity on the scrammble, I stay with 2 players getting up off the floor in backcourt. Player A5 shoves B3 back down to the floor and gets up and runs down the court. I suppose I could have ejected BillyBob for the shove, and I thought about it and reason that the shove was more than a common foul, but less than a flagrant. So I called a technical foul. Turned out Billy Dad was the scorekeeper and did not like the physical play of the incident, and he did not see ole BillyBob shove other player. It was early Sunday morning, 1st game out the gate, 9:00am. Rival schools and either these parents didn't like having to get up early Sunday morning or they all had bad Saturday nights. I will never forget this game as everybody in the gym was pissed off except for me. I was taking it easy, easy like Sunday morning.....but I still gave ole BillyBob a technical and I remeber telling all the parents, you all need to be in church.

Have a nice day....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Had a similiar situation where after a mad scrammble for the ball, 2 players down on court. Ball slips away and is now heading in other direction, fast break. I'm old lead going new trail. Because of physical activity on the scrammble, I stay with 2 players getting up off the floor in backcourt. Player A5 shoves B3 back down to the floor and gets up and runs down the court. I suppose I could have ejected BillyBob for the shove, and I thought about it and reason that the shove was more than a common foul, but less than a flagrant. So I called a technical foul.

I will never forget this game as everybody in the gym was pissed off except for me. I was taking it easy, easy like Sunday morning.....but I still gave ole BillyBob a technical and I remeber telling all the parents, you all need to be in church.

Absolutely great, you moron. The only thing that you absolutely couldn't call on this play was a freaking technical foul. Live-ball contact fouls have to be a PERSONAL foul of some kind. The RULES say that you could call either a common personal foul, an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul. Instead, Mr. WannabeAnOfficialSomeday calls the only thing that the rules won't allow to be called---a technical foul of some kind.

And this basic little fact has already been pointed out to you several times since you first infested this forum.

You could screw up a one-car funeral.

Lah me.....it just never stops.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Absolutely great, you moron. The only thing that you absolutely couldn't call on this play was a freaking technical foul. Live-ball contact fouls have to be a PERSONAL foul of some kind. The RULES say that you could call either a common personal foul, an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul. Instead, Mr. WannabeAnOfficialSomeday calls the only thing that the rules won't allow to be called---a technical foul of some kind.

I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!

That's because there is no one watching and making write-ups of the officials in rec ball. You can just screw up whatever you wish.

And while a technical foul can be charged during a live ball, one cannot be charged for CONTACT during a live ball. That is the point that JR is making to you. If there had NOT been any CONTACT on the play, then you could have assessed a T, but with CONTACT a technical foul is not permissible by rule in that situation.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's because there is no one watching and making write-ups of the officials in rec ball. You can just screw up whatever you wish.

Disagree. I guess you could call it rec-league but it was 2 HS teams, intramuals. If I was to make a mistake, there are plenty of people there at the event, scorekeepers, coaches, etc. that would let you know you made a mistake.

And while a technical foul can be charged during a live ball, one cannot be charged for CONTACT during a live ball. That is the point that JR is making to you. If there had NOT been any CONTACT on the play, then you could have assessed a T, but with CONTACT a technical foul is not permissible by rule in that situation.

I hate to bust you and JR bubble but officially, the call was for unsportsmanlike conduct. I upgraded it, so now after removing the egg on your face. You got anything else you want to say I screwed up.

Silly monkey....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I hate to bust you and JR bubble but officially, the call was for unsportsmanlike conduct. I upgraded it, so now after removing the egg on your face. You got anything else you want to say I screwed up.

Yup, you completely screwed up. The rules won't allow you to call an unsportsmanlike conduct technical foul for illegal contact during a live ball.

You didn't "upgrade" squat. You made a call that the rules say can't be made. That's because you don't know the rules.

The rules references for the non-silly monkeys that actually own rule books are NFHS rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-5b&c.

[Nevadaref]

Quote: posted by Nevadaref

And while a technical foul can be charged during a live ball, one cannot be charged for CONTACT during a live ball. That is the point that JR is making to you. If there had NOT been any CONTACT on the play, then you could have assessed a T, but with CONTACT a technical foul is not permissible by rule in that situation.

Originally Posted by Old School

I hate to bust you and JR bubble but officially, the call was for unsportsmanlike conduct. I upgraded it, so now after removing the egg on your face. You got anything else you want to say I screwed up.

Sure, let's examine these two simple definitions:

4-19-5 . . . A technical foul is:
a. A foul by a nonplayer.
b. A noncontact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter.
d. A direct technical, charged to the head coach because of his/her actions or for permitting a player to participate after having been disqualified. (10-5)
e. An indirect technical, charged to the head coach as a result of a bench technical foul being assessed to team bench personnel, or a player technical foul being assessed to a team member for dunking or grasping the ring during pregame warm-up or at intermission. (10-3-4, 10-4-1 through 5)


4-19-14 . . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.



So even with your belated unsportsmanlike explanation, you are still incorrect. Have to love the cosmic justice here!

Now take your eggs and go make an omelet, if you can manage that task without a severe screw-up.

PS We all know who the silly monkey is on this one.

[Nevadaref]

Anybody else doing this at Old School Fool now?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!

Lah me....

You don't have a clue what a flagrant foul is either, do you? There are flagrant personal fouls and there are flagrant technical fouls. Real officials know that. Real officials also know the difference. Real officials know when to call them also. RecLeague warriors don't know the rules. And they don't care either because...well....all they work are rec leagues. Who writes up rec league officials?

Am I surprised that you called a technical foul for live-ball contact, JMO? Not in the least! Am I surprised that you don't know what a flagrant foul is either? Not in the least! I would have been very surprised though if you had got it right.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lah me....

You don't have a clue what a flagrant foul is either, do you? There are flagrant personal fouls and there are flagrant technical fouls. Real officials know that. Real officials also know the difference. Real officials know when to call them also. RecLeague warriors don't know the rules. And they don't care either because...well....all they work are rec leagues. Who writes up rec league officials?

Am I surprised that you called a technical foul for live-ball contact, JMO? Not in the least! Am I surprised that you don't know what a flagrant foul is either? Not in the least! I would have been very surprised though if you had got it right.

I'm not surprised either. I heard that once when a player faked a free throw, he called a balk.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lah me....

You don't have a clue what a flagrant foul is either, do you? There are flagrant personal fouls and there are flagrant technical fouls. Real officials know that. Real officials also know the difference. Real officials know when to call them also. RecLeague warriors don't know the rules. And they don't care either because...well....all they work are rec leagues. Who writes up rec league officials?

Am I surprised that you called a technical foul for live-ball contact, JMO? Not in the least! Am I surprised that you don't know what a flagrant foul is either? Not in the least! I would have been very surprised though if you had got it right.

Real officials don't spend all their time looking for mistakes of other officials. Real officials don't try to make themselves look better at the expense of others. Real officials don't berate other officials in the profession just because they got a call wrong. As far as the call I made. I got news for you. It was my call, I made it, right or wrong. I upgraded the call to technical. Might not have been the correct thing to do, but guess what, it's a done deal now and I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade another call to technical if I felt warrented. Oh, and for the record, the technical foul was for unsportsmanlike conduct, I upgraded that one too.

Silly Master Monkey

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Old School

Real officials don't spend all their time looking for mistakes of other officials. Real officials don't try to make themselves look better at the expense of others. Real officials don't berate other officials in the profession just because they got a call wrong. As far as the call I made. I got news for you. It was my call, I made it, right or wrong. I upgraded the call to technical. Might not have been the correct thing to do, but guess what, it's a done deal now and I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade another call to technical if I felt warrented. Oh, and for the record, the technical foul was for unsportsmanlike conduct, I upgraded that one too.

Silly Master Monkey

Sometimes you have to ignore those who slam others.....it was your game, your judgement and if you are fine with the call you made, so be it. If you look at Rule 4-18-2, it clearly states that an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. So if you felt that was the case, then good call. Officiating is all subjective!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Sometimes you have to ignore those who slam others.....it was your game, your judgement and if you are fine with the call you made, so be it. If you look at Rule 4-18-2, it clearly states that an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. So if you felt that was the case, then good call. Officiating is all subjective!

Sigh.....

How can it be a good call when there was contact involved? And if you want to involve "fighting", then you'd better be throwing two players out also.

It's not a matter of slamming somebody. It's trying to get the rules right for all those that read this site.

Methinks you need to learn the basics also. Posts like yours don't help when it comes to the teaching side of this forum.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!

Old School:

1) Illegal contact while the ball is live is a personal foul. It cannot ever be a technical foul.

2) Personal fouls are of the following types: (a) common foul (including player control fouls and team control fouls (see the NCAA exception for throw-ins); (b) fouls committed against a player in the act of shooting; (c) intentional fouls; and (d) flagrant fouls.

3) Technical fouls are of the following types: (a) non-contact fouls while the ball is live; (b) non-contact fouls while the ball is dead; (c) contact fouls while the ball is dead; (d) intentional fouls; and (e) flagrant fouls.

What does this all mean? It means that any contact foul while the ball is live is a personal foul; and the official then must determine whether it is a common foul, a foul committed against a player in the act of shooting, an intentional foul, or a flagrant foul.

If you had taken the time to read and learn the definition of fouls, found in Rule 4 of both the NFHS and NCAA rules books, I would not have had to waste my time making this post.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

1) Illegal contact while the ball is a personal foul.

MTD - I'm sure this is a typo. You're not suggesting the ball can be a personal foul, are you?