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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 10:59pm
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First half, we had a kid today (Grade School) who was on the bench go into a diabetic seizure. The coach requests a time out and then runs to this kid who was sitting there on the bench holding his own neck. To those who have not witnessed many seizures, it was a sobering sight. After a couple min, he came out of it and his mom cam over and attended to him. Kid seemed back to normal and he and his mom left the gym. At half time, he rejoined his team and participated in warm ups. I asked the coach if he was ok and he said it's happened before and he should be fine now.

The kid played the 2nd half and seemed fine but I had 2nd thoughts. Should I have let him play? I witnessed this kid basically locked up. I kept my eye on him and several times asked him if he was ok if I had the opportunity.

Is a seizure considered "unconscious"? Would you have let him play?

Larks
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 12:10am
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Lightbulb I might not have.

Only because if something happen to him during the remainder of the game, you might have been blamed for not taking action. I think this is a touch call, but you have the right as an official to rule on anything that is not in the rulebook. And this is not obviously in the rulebook. But if all the other parties were thought that he was OK then I guess you did the right thing with the information that you had.

I guess in these situations you have to do what you feel is right. If think he should not play, you do have the rules and the jurisdiction to handle it. But what I want to know, what the hell was his mother thinking?
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 12:28am
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Any time a serious injury/incident occurs, I would want a doctor's note. In this case, you could use 2-3, or even 2-8-5 (the unconscious rule). Simply state that, in the judgement of the official, the kid was unconscious. Leave the real medical determinations to someone with an M.D.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 12:38am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Any time a serious injury/incident occurs, I would want a doctor's note. In this case, you could use 2-3, or even 2-8-5 (the unconscious rule). Simply state that, in the judgement of the official, the kid was unconscious. Leave the real medical determinations to someone with an M.D.
So the question: Is a diabetic Seizure a serious injury? I've heard that with a little food or juice, it doesnt take long for the person who had it to come back to "normal" and in my game, this kid seemed normal. But I gotta tell you that I was unconfortable at times. I guess thats why we have insurance but imagine: I let him stay in and he has the big seizure rather than a diabetic type...or he has it while running and falls and cracks his melon. I can see the lawsuit naming me, the school, the coach, the township, county and everyone on this messageboard all because I let a kid who seemed and looked fine to all involved...play.

I think if I had it to do over again, I say "no". These decisions are much easier with the benefit of 4 hours to think about it.

Larks
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 03:26am
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In my real job, I work as a registered nurse in a hospital emergency room. I have on many occaisions seen exactly what you are talking about. A hypoglycemic reaction or diabetic seizure as you call it is a reaction to low blood sugar. Low blood sugar can have varying degrees of severity. A person may feel weak and dizzy to being fully unconscious. If the player in your opinion was unconscious then I would not have allowed him to return to the game without physician approval. If they were just weak and dizzy but could respond to you verbally, I probably would allow them to return after treatment to raise the blood sugar. Let me add that very few true seizures involve consciousness.

[Edited by daves on Jan 7th, 2002 at 02:30 AM]
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 07:13am
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Angry

Quote:
Originally posted by Larks
Would you have let him play?

Larks,
I think it is unconscionable that an official would have that put on his plate without a warning, guidance or some kind of medical note.
mick
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 09:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by daves
In my real job, I work as a registered nurse in a hospital emergency room. I have on many occaisions seen exactly what you are talking about. A hypoglycemic reaction or diabetic seizure as you call it is a reaction to low blood sugar. Low blood sugar can have varying degrees of severity. A person may feel weak and dizzy to being fully unconscious. If the player in your opinion was unconscious then I would not have allowed him to return to the game without physician approval. If they were just weak and dizzy but could respond to you verbally, I probably would allow them to return after treatment to raise the blood sugar. Let me add that very few true seizures involve consciousness.

[Edited by daves on Jan 7th, 2002 at 02:30 AM]
Well, his eyes werent closed and he was sitting on the bench but he was unresponsive to the coach for a couple minutes. Again....mom gave him some juice or whatever and he was back to "normal". This has been some good feedback. I'm still hanging my hat on not again. Just too many medical unknowns to make me think I dont want to be in the loop.

Ya know....I just had a thought....Hey Mom and Coach....if you know you have a kid who goes thru this....mix in a meal before game time!

Larks
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 09:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by daves
Let me add that very few true seizures involve consciousness.
That's true, but officials only need to determine that a player is "apparently unconscious." Since few of us are medical professionals, unconscious can be broadly interpreted, if you get my drift .

BTW, daves, as an ER RN, do you ever get involved when a player has a serious injury and there are no EMTs on site?
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 10:01am
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My first thought when I saw the thread topic was that I would require a physician's note to let a kid continue. Nothing in the post or responses has changed my mind on that. JMHO. I am not so much worried about liability I just don't want that on my conscious if something were to happen.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larks
I guess thats why we have insurance but imagine: I let him stay in and he has the big seizure rather than a diabetic type...or he has it while running and falls and cracks his melon. I can see the lawsuit naming me, the school, the coach, the township, county and everyone on this messageboard all because I let a kid who seemed and looked fine to all involved...play.
My HS nurse's comment about malpractice/liability insurance:

"I have $1 Million in insurance, but I only get to use it once."
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 11:52am
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In a HS or higher game there would probably be medical staff available to issue a release. In lower style game (such as this) it is hard just to get everyone to understand just the basic rules. Hindsight is always 20-20, but I would have thought hard about letting him play.
Since verbal instructions/agreements are hard to prove, why write in scorebook next to players name "OK to play" and have the mother initial it????
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by donfowler
In a HS or higher game there would probably be medical staff available to issue a release. In lower style game (such as this) it is hard just to get everyone to understand just the basic rules. Hindsight is always 20-20, but I would have thought hard about letting him play.
Since verbal instructions/agreements are hard to prove, why write in scorebook next to players name "OK to play" and have the mother initial it????
Good thinking on the "getting it in writing." However, I still would not play in this situation. Unless the mother is a physician, I'm unsure if she can clear her son to play. (This is why we require a doctor's WRITTEN authorization to return - if you have medical staff on hand, make sure there is an MD present, and not just an EMT/Paramedic.)

This whole thing with releasing liability came up a while back with a coach willing "take full responsibility" for letting a player play in some state where she should not have been allowed to play. Someone may take responsibility, but that does not mean liability has been transferred!
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by donfowler
In a HS or higher game there would probably be medical staff available to issue a release. In lower style game (such as this) it is hard just to get everyone to understand just the basic rules. Hindsight is always 20-20, but I would have thought hard about letting him play.
Since verbal instructions/agreements are hard to prove, why write in scorebook next to players name "OK to play" and have the mother initial it????
Good thinking on the "getting it in writing." However, I still would not play in this situation. Unless the mother is a physician, I'm unsure if she can clear her son to play. (This is why we require a doctor's WRITTEN authorization to return - if you have medical staff on hand, make sure there is an MD present, and not just an EMT/Paramedic.)

This whole thing with releasing liability came up a while back with a coach willing "take full responsibility" for letting a player play in some state where she should not have been allowed to play. Someone may take responsibility, but that does not mean liability has been transferred!
The idea of Mom initialing beside the name in the book has several issues. Who keeps that book and are they reliable to not "lose" it by accident or on purpose. The other thing about having mom sign off is that if I allowed that, I would not be following NF rules thus exposing myself further to liability.

I would rather take my lumps from the family, fans and coach than live with the potential of something bad happening on a variety of fronts.

Next Time....No Play without a Doctor's note.

Larks - Veteran In Training
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larks
First half, we had a kid today (Grade School) who was on the bench go into a diabetic seizure.
Larks
Let me ask a few questions. Given that you posted late Sunday night and that you are talking about grade school, is this a rec league game? Are you a parent reffing the game? Are you a certified ref working this game on assignment?

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Old Mon Jan 07, 2002, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RecRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Larks
First half, we had a kid today (Grade School) who was on the bench go into a diabetic seizure.
Larks
Let me ask a few questions. Given that you posted late Sunday night and that you are talking about grade school, is this a rec league game? Are you a parent reffing the game? Are you a certified ref working this game on assignment?

1. This is organized 5th Grade. They have various levels...some are "athletic" and some are more to just get the kids involved.

2. I am not a parent reffing. ?!?

3. I am Ohio Class 2 Certified.

4. The assignor for this league does not require certified officials if that matters, but I was assigned to work this and 2 other games.

Larks


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