Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

He hasn't answered because he can't. The clock is supposed to be stopped when the whistle sounds, not after. If it is after, there is an error. Sure, its not practially possible to do so but that is the rule. Sure the officials may not have information to correct it, but it is still an error.

JR asked why wouldn't you do the same for a foul as for a violation or held ball? Easy, because the rule only says to do that for a violation or held ball. The fact that it doesn't say so about a foul means it doesn't apply to a foul.

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) He hasn't answered because he can't.

2) A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

1) Well, of course I can't. Each play is different. This play being discussed isn't an error per se though.

2) Feel feel to explain why NCAA AR121 sez you're completely full of doodoo.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

This play being discussed isn't an error per se though.

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

Yup. One is an error. One isn't. That's what NCAA AR121 is saying.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

That's what I thought as well.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That determination is made for each and every play. It sureasheck doesn't hold for all plays. If I feel that the timer was slow stopping the clock, and I have definite information that will allow me to adjust the clock, then I'll adjust the clock. If I feel that the whistle and horn were almost simultaneous, then the only thing that I have have to make a judgment on is whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the horn went. I can't put any time back on the clock when there isn't a timing error. If you think that I can, please cite a rule that will back your contention up.

All of which is my problem now and, Scrapper will remember, last year, too. They eliminate lag time create a problem foir which they've given us no answer.

How do you explain away NCAA AR121 btw?

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says.

Well, the FED and the NCAA have basically the same rules language concerning when the ball is dead, etc. The NCAA just went one step further with which is basically a case play.

What rules backing can you find under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock? How do you explain away R5-6-2EXCEPTION2? If you can't put time back on the clock for a violation or held ball if the clock can't be stopped before time expires, why should you be able to put time back on the clock for a foul that happened under the exact same circumstances?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, the FED and the NCAA have basically the same rules language concerning when the ball is dead, etc. The NCAA just went one step further with which is basically a case play.

What rules backing can you find under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock? How do you explain away R5-6-2EXCEPTION2? If you can't put time back on the clock for a violation or held ball if the clock can't be stopped before time expires, why should you be able to put time back on the clock for a foul that happened under the exact same circumstances?

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, or right.

In my mind, the Fed simply has not taken care of business with this rule changed. I b!tched about it last year when they changed it (Ask Scrapper!).

I think it's very clear that if the whistle sounds before the horn, then the clock should stop. Since the clock should stop, the player is allowed to complete his shot because time has not expired. If Precision Time is present, that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. Why shouldn't it happen when there isn"t PT? Why should the clock not be reset when humanity plays apart in not stopping it when the whistle blows?

Again, how much time is an error and how much time is allowable? With lag time, it was clear. They've done a LOUSY job with this situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Again, how much time is an error and how much time is allowable? With lag time, it was clear. They've done a LOUSY job with this situation.

Can't really argue with that either.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They don't apply to NFHS situations.

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD does though. Just about the same ruling as NCAA AR121.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD says otherwise.

Thank Nevada for digging that one up from an old thread.