Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

You might be thinking of this thread. It has the same concept. I don't think there was consensus on that one either......

Girl's Game Sitch - Basket or No Basket

[Adam]

Your way is easier. I'm fine with that.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What timing error?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing error to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

So how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

If I blow the whistle, see 1 second on the clock, and he allows the time to expire and the horn to sound, I can certainly count the basket, and put one second back on the clock.

5-10-1
The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

You're talking about a timing error too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

I had always thought that you had to have time on the clock when shooting free throws but I was proven wrong this weekend.

Sequence:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- Releases shot.
- Time expires and horn sounds.
- Before shooter returns to floor B1 fouls A1.

Ruling: Free throws are awarded with 0.00 on the clock. (If at the end of the game then free throws are shot only if it can affect the outcome.)


2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

I had that same situation at camp this weekend:
A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

I went to my partners and ask them if they had definate knowledge of the time after my whistle. They said no, so we ended the half with shots. Now, the evaluator said I should have put .3 back on the clock. But I told him that we didnt have definate knowledge.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing "mistake" with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a mistake. This isn't a mistake. The clock was stopped properly.

If the ball wasnt released, prior to the horn, shot is no good.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're talking about a timing error too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

He hasn't answered because he can't. The clock is supposed to be stopped when the whistle sounds, not after. If it is after, there is an error. Sure, its not practially possible to do so but that is the rule. Sure the officials may not have information to correct it, but it is still an error.

JR asked why wouldn't you do the same for a foul as for a violation or held ball? Easy, because the rule only says to do that for a violation or held ball. The fact that it doesn't say so about a foul means it doesn't apply to a foul.

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) He hasn't answered because he can't.

2) A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

1) Well, of course I can't. Each play is different. This play being discussed isn't an error per se though.

2) Feel feel to explain why NCAA AR121 sez you're completely full of doodoo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

That determination is made for each and every play. It sureasheck doesn't hold for all plays. If I feel that the timer was slow stopping the clock, and I have definite information that will allow me to adjust the clock, then I'll adjust the clock. If I feel that the whistle and horn were almost simultaneous, then the only thing that I have have to make a judgment on is whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the horn went. I can't put any time back on the clock when there isn't a timing error. If you think that I can, please cite a rule that will back your contention up.

How do you explain away NCAA AR121 btw?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

This play being discussed isn't an error per se though.

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

Yup. One is an error. One isn't. That's what NCAA AR121 is saying.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

That's what I thought as well.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That determination is made for each and every play. It sureasheck doesn't hold for all plays. If I feel that the timer was slow stopping the clock, and I have definite information that will allow me to adjust the clock, then I'll adjust the clock. If I feel that the whistle and horn were almost simultaneous, then the only thing that I have have to make a judgment on is whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the horn went. I can't put any time back on the clock when there isn't a timing error. If you think that I can, please cite a rule that will back your contention up.

All of which is my problem now and, Scrapper will remember, last year, too. They eliminate lag time create a problem foir which they've given us no answer.

How do you explain away NCAA AR121 btw?

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says.

Well, the FED and the NCAA have basically the same rules language concerning when the ball is dead, etc. The NCAA just went one step further with which is basically a case play.

What rules backing can you find under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock? How do you explain away R5-6-2EXCEPTION2? If you can't put time back on the clock for a violation or held ball if the clock can't be stopped before time expires, why should you be able to put time back on the clock for a foul that happened under the exact same circumstances?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

Yep, we knocked it around when some Carolina association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling