Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD says otherwise.

Thank Nevada for digging that one up from an old thread.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They don't apply to NFHS situations.

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD does though. Just about the same ruling as NCAA AR121.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, we knocked it around when some Canadian association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

Canada is in South Carolina?

[btaylor64]

I guess you have to go with the AR but it makes no sense.

If you have a foul and you know your whistle came before the horn then put time back on the clock and shoot the free throw (count the basket) or free throws (if unsucessful).

If the horn goes off before the release and you have a foul after the horn then just end the quarter, half or game. You can't have a foul unless it is a legitimate try and in this case it can't be because time has expired and the end of the quarter, half or regulation has occurred and the ball is considered to be dead.

This is a good play to talk about though.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, the FED and the NCAA have basically the same rules language concerning when the ball is dead, etc. The NCAA just went one step further with which is basically a case play.

What rules backing can you find under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock? How do you explain away R5-6-2EXCEPTION2? If you can't put time back on the clock for a violation or held ball if the clock can't be stopped before time expires, why should you be able to put time back on the clock for a foul that happened under the exact same circumstances?

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, or right.

In my mind, the Fed simply has not taken care of business with this rule changed. I b!tched about it last year when they changed it (Ask Scrapper!).

I think it's very clear that if the whistle sounds before the horn, then the clock should stop. Since the clock should stop, the player is allowed to complete his shot because time has not expired. If Precision Time is present, that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. Why shouldn't it happen when there isn"t PT? Why should the clock not be reset when humanity plays apart in not stopping it when the whistle blows?

Again, how much time is an error and how much time is allowable? With lag time, it was clear. They've done a LOUSY job with this situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Again, how much time is an error and how much time is allowable? With lag time, it was clear. They've done a LOUSY job with this situation.

Can't really argue with that either.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Canada is in South Carolina?

It is when you get as tired as I was when I wrote that!
I've gone back and fixed it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

Are you from South Carolina? If so, then it appears that you can do just that.
I've already posted the link to the earlier thread on this, but since their webpage changes and thus the play ruling might be hard to locate, I'll post it again here. NOTE: This is NOT the official NFHS ruling for the play, it is just the opinion of the SC folks.

2006-2007 - Special Play of the Week

The play described below is a special situation that occurs occassionally and is provided for your review. The ruling given is based on Federation rules. NCAA rulings may be different.

Play #1 - A1 jumps to attempt a last second try. A1 is fouled, the whistle sounds and, after the whistle has sounded, the horn sounds indicating that time has expired for the period. A1 then releases the try and subsequently the ball passes through the basket. What is the correct procedure?

Answer: In the past the goal would not be counted since the try was released after the horn had sounded. The clock operator was allowed a one second "lag time" to stop the clock. In other words, the period had ended prior to the release of the try. A1 would have been awarded two or three free throws based on the location of the attempt.

However, with the elimination of "lag time", by rule, there has now been an obvious timing mistake . That is, the clock should have stopped when the whistle was sounded. Therefore, the basket must be counted since, by rule, it was released prior to the end of the period. One free throw will be administered.

The officials will confer to determine who has the definite knowledge of the amount of time involved. The referee shall put that amount of time back on the clock. Remember only the referee can put time back on the clock (Rule 5.10.1). Players will line up along the free throw lane for the free throw attempt.

If the officials do not have definite knowledge, then no time will be put back on the clock The free throw will be attempted with no players lined up along the lane and, by rule (Rule 5.6.2 Exception 3), the period will end when the free throw attempt is over barring any additional foul (technical or personal) that may occur prior to the end of the free throw attempt.

Note: Time correction with definite information/knowledge --- "lag time", by rule, is no longer a factor. The fact is there will be many times during the game that lag time will take place. Officials cannot watch the clock all the time. Until all levels of basketball use the "magic whistle", that fact will not change. The Editor has clarified that the rules committee did not intend to cause the officials to become clock watchers, there is a game to officiate. The change came about because many clocks now display tenths of a second and at the end of quarters time is very visible and crucial. During other parts of the game it certainly is possible to correct timing errors of one second or more, but it is more difficult to observe without tenths of a second visible on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

And South Carolina completely ignored case book play 5.6.2SitD when they made that ruling. Their ruling is at complete odds with that NFHS case play.

Silly monkeys.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And South Carolina completely ignored case book play 5.6.2SitD when they made that ruling. Their ruling is at complete odds with that NFHS case play.

Silly monkeys.

Funny thing about that case...it doesn't mention when the whistle sounds. I infer it to mean that the official didn't sound the whistle in time to have the clock stopped. In that case, I'd agree. The clock can't be stopped before the whistle.

Now answer the question...how little time is not an error? Put simply, the only number is 0.0 seconds. Anything more is an error. The counting or cancelling of a basket when the clock runs after the whistle should not depend on whether the official knows how much time to correct.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you from South Carolina? If so, then it appears that you can do just that.

Not really, I don't think. This is just the opinion of a not very knowledgeable rules interpreter from one association in South Carolina. I doubt very much that it came from the state and is regarded as an official ruling. That would fly in the face of common sense when there is a case play saying that this particular ruling is wrong.

[All_Heart]

Okay lets break down what the referee can do to correct a timing error.

RULE 5
SECTION 10 TIMER'S MISTAKES


ART. 1 . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.

Art 1 states that you must have "definite information" to correct a timing mistake.

Art 2 states that the official can use "other official information".


Play 1:
There is a foul and a whistle with 0.5 seconds showing but the timer doesn't stop the clock. No officials observe the "exact time" on the clock.

Question 1a:
Are we allowed to ask the timer or scorer if they saw the amount of time on the clock? I would say that this is "other official information".

Question 1b:
No one in the gym (officials, table crew, coaches, mom in stands) observed the amount of time on the clock but the officials are 100% positive that the whistle came before the horn. We have definite information that at least 0.1 seconds should be on the clock (Rule 5-10-2) so shouldn't this be the amount of time we put back on the clock?

Question 1c:
Everthing is the same in the above play except the official observes 0.2 seconds on the clock before it expires. We have definite information that at least 0.2 seconds should be on the clock (Rule 5-10-1) and this is what is put on the clock. If you look at the 2 underlined sentences they are identical except for the amount of time, the way that the information was gathered and the rule applied. Does Art 2 allow us (by rule) to put 0.1 seconds on the clock without having to observe it?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If you look at the 2 underlined sentences they are identical except for the amount of time, the way that the information was gathered and the rule applied.

That is to say, they're not even similar.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

That is to say, they're not even similar.

LOL I guess that didn't make much sense.

My point was that in each you have definite information that there is at least a certain amount of time on the clock. You just get that information a different way.

[All_Heart]

Have I made a good enough argument to put .1 second on the clock and score a basket that was still in a players hands when the horn went off but should have been stopped?

Has anyone sent this play to the Fed for a possible clarafication?