Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[All_Heart]

I had always thought that you had to have time on the clock when shooting free throws but I was proven wrong this weekend.

Sequence:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- Releases shot.
- Time expires and horn sounds.
- Before shooter returns to floor B1 fouls A1.

Ruling: Free throws are awarded with 0.00 on the clock. (If at the end of the game then free throws are shot only if it can affect the outcome.)


2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

[rockyroad]

Do you have a rules reference for that second situation????

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

You may want to check this one out. It's wrong.

- if the ball is still in A1's hands when the horn goes to end a period, the ball is dead. No basket.
- A1 will shoot 2 FT's with the lanes cleared.
-There is no time put back on the clock.

The NCAA cite is rule 5-7-3(c) and AR121. NFHS rule is 6-7-7EXCEPTION.

[rockyroad]

I didn't ask you, ya old poop!!

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You may want to check this one out. It's wrong.

- if the ball is still in A1's hands when the horn goes to end a period, the ball is dead. No basket.
- A1 will shoot 2 FT's with the lanes cleared.
-There is no time put back on the clock.

The NCAA cite is rule 5-7-3(c) and AR121. NFHS rule is 6-7-7EXCEPTION.

I removed the extra parts of A.R.121 to make it easier to read.

A.R. 121. With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting but time expires before the release of the ball
RULING: A1’s try shall be disallowed since it was not released before time expired. A1 shall attempt two free throws since the foul was committed before the expiration of time. When one free throw is successful, the game is over. When both free throws are unsuccessful, the game continues with an extra period(s).

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 7 . . . A foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.

WOW, I'm not following the logic of these rulings. Please help me to understand.

This is the way I see it.

The timer should have stopped the clock when the foul occured so time would never have expired. We have definite knowledge that the foul occured before the horn. So we have definite knowledge that at least .01 seconds should be put on the clock. Why would we not put .01 on the clock, count the basket and shoot 1 free throw??

[rockyroad]

I guess I'm not following your logic...if the shot is not released before the horn, it can't count. Period. If you are trying to play the "put a split second back on the clock" game - don't...if the horn is that close to the whistle for the foul, don't try to mess around with it.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I guess I'm not following your logic...if the shot is not released before the horn, it can't count. Period. If you are trying to play the "put a split second back on the clock" game - don't...if the horn is that close to the whistle for the foul, don't try to mess around with it.

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

[Adam]

if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be put back on the clock, then you can put it back on, count the basket, and shoot the appropriate free throws. Time hasn't expired, so you that's why you can count the basket. If you don't have definite knowledge, then you can't count the bucket since time officially expired prior to the release of the shot. Shoot the appropriate free throws with no time on the clock.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

You might be thinking of this thread. It has the same concept. I don't think there was consensus on that one either......

Girl's Game Sitch - Basket or No Basket

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

Yep, we knocked it around when some Carolina association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

I had always thought that you had to have time on the clock when shooting free throws but I was proven wrong this weekend.

Sequence:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- Releases shot.
- Time expires and horn sounds.
- Before shooter returns to floor B1 fouls A1.

Ruling: Free throws are awarded with 0.00 on the clock. (If at the end of the game then free throws are shot only if it can affect the outcome.)


2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

I had that same situation at camp this weekend:
A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

I went to my partners and ask them if they had definate knowledge of the time after my whistle. They said no, so we ended the half with shots. Now, the evaluator said I should have put .3 back on the clock. But I told him that we didnt have definate knowledge.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

Are you from South Carolina? If so, then it appears that you can do just that.
I've already posted the link to the earlier thread on this, but since their webpage changes and thus the play ruling might be hard to locate, I'll post it again here. NOTE: This is NOT the official NFHS ruling for the play, it is just the opinion of the SC folks.

2006-2007 - Special Play of the Week

The play described below is a special situation that occurs occassionally and is provided for your review. The ruling given is based on Federation rules. NCAA rulings may be different.

Play #1 - A1 jumps to attempt a last second try. A1 is fouled, the whistle sounds and, after the whistle has sounded, the horn sounds indicating that time has expired for the period. A1 then releases the try and subsequently the ball passes through the basket. What is the correct procedure?

Answer: In the past the goal would not be counted since the try was released after the horn had sounded. The clock operator was allowed a one second "lag time" to stop the clock. In other words, the period had ended prior to the release of the try. A1 would have been awarded two or three free throws based on the location of the attempt.

However, with the elimination of "lag time", by rule, there has now been an obvious timing mistake . That is, the clock should have stopped when the whistle was sounded. Therefore, the basket must be counted since, by rule, it was released prior to the end of the period. One free throw will be administered.

The officials will confer to determine who has the definite knowledge of the amount of time involved. The referee shall put that amount of time back on the clock. Remember only the referee can put time back on the clock (Rule 5.10.1). Players will line up along the free throw lane for the free throw attempt.

If the officials do not have definite knowledge, then no time will be put back on the clock The free throw will be attempted with no players lined up along the lane and, by rule (Rule 5.6.2 Exception 3), the period will end when the free throw attempt is over barring any additional foul (technical or personal) that may occur prior to the end of the free throw attempt.

Note: Time correction with definite information/knowledge --- "lag time", by rule, is no longer a factor. The fact is there will be many times during the game that lag time will take place. Officials cannot watch the clock all the time. Until all levels of basketball use the "magic whistle", that fact will not change. The Editor has clarified that the rules committee did not intend to cause the officials to become clock watchers, there is a game to officiate. The change came about because many clocks now display tenths of a second and at the end of quarters time is very visible and crucial. During other parts of the game it certainly is possible to correct timing errors of one second or more, but it is more difficult to observe without tenths of a second visible on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

And South Carolina completely ignored case book play 5.6.2SitD when they made that ruling. Their ruling is at complete odds with that NFHS case play.

Silly monkeys.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And South Carolina completely ignored case book play 5.6.2SitD when they made that ruling. Their ruling is at complete odds with that NFHS case play.

Silly monkeys.

Funny thing about that case...it doesn't mention when the whistle sounds. I infer it to mean that the official didn't sound the whistle in time to have the clock stopped. In that case, I'd agree. The clock can't be stopped before the whistle.

Now answer the question...how little time is not an error? Put simply, the only number is 0.0 seconds. Anything more is an error. The counting or cancelling of a basket when the clock runs after the whistle should not depend on whether the official knows how much time to correct.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you from South Carolina? If so, then it appears that you can do just that.

Not really, I don't think. This is just the opinion of a not very knowledgeable rules interpreter from one association in South Carolina. I doubt very much that it came from the state and is regarded as an official ruling. That would fly in the face of common sense when there is a case play saying that this particular ruling is wrong.