Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Have I made a good enough argument to put .1 second on the clock and score a basket that was still in a players hands when the horn went off but should have been stopped?

Has anyone sent this play to the Fed for a possible clarafication?

You have no rules justification to put any time back on the clock. You do not have definite knowledge of any kind. No one observed the time on the clock and there was no official count of any kind made. There's no need to go to the FED for a clarification when NFHS rule 5-10 already covers the play definitively.

You already have a definitive NFHS case play and a definitive NCAA AR saying that no time goes back on the clock in this particular situation. What more do you need?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Have I made a good enough argument to put .1 second on the clock and score a basket that was still in a players hands when the horn went off but should have been stopped?

Has anyone sent this play to the Fed for a possible clarafication?

No.

I believe so.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Have I made a good enough argument to put .1 second on the clock and score a basket that was still in a players hands when the horn went off but should have been stopped?

Has anyone sent this play to the Fed for a possible clarafication?

The way I understand it, "definitive information" means you need to know exactly how much time to put back on the clock, and not use a guess. This definitive information can be the result of an official looking at the clock and knowing what the clock says at the time of the whistle, checking with a table person to find out what the clock said/says, or even a specific official's count, such as a backcourt 10-sec. count. However, in your example, even though you know some time needs to be added back, .1 seconds is still a guess. How do you know it isn't really .03, or 1.1? You may definitely know time might need to be added, but you do not know definitively how much time to add.

[M&M Guy]

Um, yea, what they said!

I guess I need a refresher on my speed-typing course.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You do not have definite knowledge of any kind.

This is not exactly true. I agree you do not have definite knowledge of how much time ran off the clock after the whistle sounded. But you do have definite knowledge that some time ran off the clock after the whistle sounded.

This is similar to the case in which there is a backcourt throw-in and after you've been in the frontcourt for a few seconds, you recognize that the clock didn't start. I think it was Camron Rust who argued that you should take time off the clock equal to whatever your backcourt count was, because you have definite knowledge that at least that much time should've come off the clock.

All_Heart is making a similar case, in that you know at least 0.1 seconds came off the clock, since the whistle definitely came first.

I agree that without seeing the exact amount of time that ran off, we can't fix it in this case.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

1) This is not exactly true.

2) This is similar to the case in which there is a backcourt throw-in and after you've been in the frontcourt for a few seconds, you recognize that the clock didn't start. I think it was Camron Rust who argued that you should take time off the clock equal to whatever your backcourt count was, because you have definite knowledge that at least that much time should've come off the clock.

1) Disagree. It is true. Definite knowledge is exact knowledge, not a guess. You have NO idea how much time ran off the clock in this play. End of story--- rules-wise. If you think otherwise, post a "definite time" then.

2) How can a play where there is NO official count or knowledge available of any kind be similar to another play where there was an official count for part of the play? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Apples and coconuts. Btw, Camron's argument is nonsensical also imo. The rule says you have to have definite information relative to the time involved to make a correction. It sureashell doesn't say that you can also have definite knowledge for part of the time involved.

[Adam]

"Definite" does not mean "exact." "Exact" is neither in the rules nor is it a practical guideline. If you want exact knowledge, you'll never make a correction in the time.
You can definitely know that at least 5 seconds should have come off, even if you know it should have been closer to 15. Take the 5 off.

Now, if you're unsure, talk to the assigner/rules interpreter relevant to your assigned games. If your assigner happens to be Jurassic, well, you know what to do....

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Disagree. It is true. Definite knowledge is exact knowledge, not a guess. You have NO idea how much time ran off the clock in this play. End of story--- rules-wise. If you think otherwise, post a "definite time" then.

I know we are beating this point into the ground. I agree that the NCAA AR specifically handles this situation. However I feel that the NFHS leaves this open for discussion. As you said "Definite knowledge is exact knowledge, not a guess", you have exact knowledge that at least 0.1 seconds should be on the clock. I'm not suggesting putting 0.4 seconds so that you may have a catch and shoot as some officials would consider "common sense". I think until they put out a case play (like the NCAA AR) it is open for interpretation on what definite knowledge implies.

Play:
The official glances up at the clock and there is 3 seconds counting down. 1 or 2 seconds later your partner calls a foul. The timer forgets to stop the clock and shortly after the whistle the horn sounds with the ball still in the shooters hands. The shooter continues his shot and makes the basket. No one saw the clock after the whistle.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:
1) The official has definite knowledge that the whistle came before the horn.
2) The official has definite knowledge that 0.1 seconds or greater should be on the clock.
3) We can only put 0.1 seconds because anymore would be guessing.
4) In a NFHS game we will count the basket and put 0.1 seconds on the clock with A1 shooting 1 free throw.
5) In a NCAA game we will disallow the basket and the shooter will shoot 2 free throws with no time remaining.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Definite" does not mean "exact." "Exact" is neither in the rules nor is it a practical guideline. If you want exact knowledge, you'll never make a correction in the time.
You can definitely know that at least 5 seconds should have come off, even if you know it should have been closer to 15. Take the 5 off.

This is a great point Snaqwells.

Maybe the rules committee could put out a ruling saying if you didn't see the time remaining then take your best estimated guess and subtract 50% to be safe.

So if there is 30 seconds left and you think it should be 40 then you would put it at 35. I know, I know this would never happen but there needs to be something for the good of the game in this situation.

90% of the time GOOD officials will check the clock after a whistle, but what happens if there is a big fight with 20 seconds remaining and everyone (rightfully so) forgets about the clock. There should be something in the rules that allow us to put time back on the clock in this situation!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Definite" does not mean "exact." "Exact" is neither in the rules nor is it a practical guideline. If you want exact knowledge, you'll never make a correction in the time.

You put back on the exact time that you see on the clock. You take off the exact time of your count.

Again, where may I find anywhere in the rules-NCAA or NFHS- any reference to being able to put on or take off part of the time actually used?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

1) I agree that the NCAA AR specifically handles this situation. However I feel that the NFHS leaves this open for discussion.

2) Play:
The official glances up at the clock and there is 3 seconds counting down. 1 or 2 seconds later your partner calls a foul. The timer forgets to stop the clock and shortly after the whistle the horn sounds with the ball still in the shooters hands. The shooter continues his shot and makes the basket. No one saw the clock after the whistle.

1) The NFHS case play is exactly the same as the NCAA AR.Are you really saying that FED case play 5.6.2SitD is wrong?

2) Again, this is NOT the play being discussed. It has completely different circumstances. In the original post there was NO timing mistake made. Notwithstanding that, this play is similar in that the ball is dead if it is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off, under both NCAA and NFHS rules. And because there is no definite information available, no time can be put back on the clock-- also by rule.

[IUgrad92]

In my second year of officiating, I was doing a JV game with a partner I'd never worked with before. I had a shooting foul under the basket and didn't see if the basket was made. My partner didn't cut me off as I went to the table, which normally means that the shot didn't go in. I reported the foul and said 2 shots, the coach asked "Doesn't the basket count?" So I go ask my partner if the shot went in. All I got was a blank stare. I went back to the coach and said I don't know and my partner doesn't know, so we're shooting 2 shots.

After the game, the varsity officials bring up that play. I explain what happened, etc. He suggested that in that situation, if neither of us know if the basket was made, to ask the table personnel, "Did the ball go through the basket on the shot". At the time, I'm sure the table personnel knew that it did, but I didn't ask them.

So my question, is it reasonable to ask the timer if he/she has definite knowledge to the time on the clock at the time of the whistle? If so, then use that knowledge to reset the time.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1)
...

Notwithstanding that, this play is similar in that the ball is dead if it is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off, under both NCAA and NFHS rules. And because there is no definite information available, no time can be put back on the clock-- also by rule.

Why do you keep saying this? It is not true. ncaa 2.5.1f says the official monitor can be consulted to make...

A determination, based on the judgment of the official, that a timing mistake has occurred in either starting or stopping the game clock. After the ball is in play, such a mistake shall be corrected during the first dead ball or during the next live ball but before the ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have been continuously running, the mistake shall be corrected before the second live ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player.

This idea extends to games where there is no courtside monitor. IOW, you had better be prepared to fix clock errors as they occur to the best of your ability. If that means to you that someone on the crew has to claim "definite knowledge" then so be it. But the crew cannot let obvious timing mistakes go unfixed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

So my question, is it reasonable to ask the timer if he/she has definite knowledge to the time on the clock at the time of the whistle? If so, then use that knowledge to reset the time.

Yes, if the timer does have definite knowledge you can use it. See NFHS case play 5.10.1SitD.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Why do you keep saying this?

I'm not saying this. Nor have I ever said this. The NCAA rule book is saying this. I'm just repeating what they say. Specifically, the NCAA is saying this through AR121(a) at R5-7-3. That AR is the exact same play as the original post and it says that you don't put any time back on the clock. NFHS case book play5.6.2SitD is exactly similar also, and the FED says that time doesn't go back on the clock either.

It's NOT a timing mistake. The horn and whistle for the foul were almost simultaneous. Iow, the timer stopped the clock properly at the whistle but the horn still went off. The calling official now has to determine whether the foul occurred before or after the horn, and also has to determine that if the foul occurred first, was the ball still in the shooter's hands when the horn went off. If the official determined that the foul occurred before the horn and the ball was in the shooter's hands at the horn, then NCAA AR121 and NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD tell you exactly what to do.