What is the correct procedure?

[dave30]

Team A inbounds the ball at the baseline (backcourt). Player dribbles to midcourt. I notice that the clock never started. (actually my partner noticed, the clock was behind me) I take the ball back to the baseline and Team A throws the ball in again. Only this time, Team B decides to press. Team B steals the ball and scores. The coach argues that I should have taken some time off the clock and gave them the ball at midcourt since it wasn't their fault that the clock didn't start. He had a point. I told him I honestly didn't know the correct procedure, but did what I thought was correct. Was I wrong?

[Camron Rust]

The coach was correct.

Team A advanced the ball to midcourt and should get the ball back at that spot no matter what else is done. That was the location of the ball when it became dead to address the clock issue.

Since the player had just dribbled to midcourt, you would have had your backcourt count to use for correcting the clock....at least as much as your backcourt count should come off the clock, perhaps more if you had additional counts after crossing the midcourt line.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Team A advanced the ball to midcourt and should get the ball back at that spot no matter what else is done. That was the location of the ball when it became dead to address the clock issue.

Here we go again....

I disagree completely. There is no rules backing for your statement above. Giving the offensive team half-court with no time taken off makes no sense at all- to me.However, there also is no rules backing for my take that it simply a do-over if there is no accurate count.

This play is not covered definitively under NFHS rules.

Maybe we can agree to disagree and cut off the usual 15-page argument about it. Anybody interested can just use the search function to find one of the many old arguments that we've had on this exact same play, if they're so inclined. We've certainly discussed this one to death.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Here we go again....

I disagree completely. There is no rules backing for your statement above. Giving the offensive team half-court with no time taken off makes no sense at all- to me.However, there also is no rules backing for my take that it simply a do-over if there is no accurate count.

This play is not covered definitively under NFHS rules.

Maybe we can agree to disagree and cut off the usual 15-page argument about it. Anybody interested can just use the search function to find one of the many old arguments that we've had on this exact same play, if they're so inclined. We've certainly discussed this one to death.

I'll sign that truce.

[blindzebra]

There isn't a rule covering either, and whichever way you rule, disadvantages one team...so it's 2-3 and neither is wrong.

[Nevadaref]

Put me down on Dexter's side in this one, but I'm certainly not going to get into another with JR.

[dave30]

I'm still confused !

If it happens again in the future. Should I :


A. Take the ball back to the original throw-in spot and not worry if the defense presses?

B. Estimate the time elapsed. Tell the clock person to run off 8 seconds and give them the ball in the frontcourt?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Here we go again....

I disagree completely. There is no rules backing for your statement above. Giving the offensive team half-court with no time taken off makes no sense at all- to me.However, there also is no rules backing for my take that it simply a do-over if there is no accurate count.

This play is not covered definitively under NFHS rules.

Maybe we can agree to disagree and cut off the usual 15-page argument about it. Anybody interested can just use the search function to find one of the many old arguments that we've had on this exact same play, if they're so inclined. We've certainly discussed this one to death.

JR:

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra: "Its deja vue all over again." But I do not believe that we can agree to disagree on this play. It does not matter whether this thread goes fifteen pages or thirty pages, Camron and I are right on this one for the same reasons that we have given before.

So lets go back to something that we can all enjoy: bashing Old School. I know that was cold wasn't it.

On a lighter note, have a nice summer.

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
If you didn't have a 10 second count, the throw-in is still from mid-court (nearest point to where the ball was when you blew the whistle), but unless you have definite knowledge, you leave the clock where it was. Since the ball was touched inbounds, you're not going to go all the way back to the baseline (i.e., no do-overs).

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule to back that up?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Team A advanced the ball to midcourt and should get the ball back at that spot no matter what else is done. That was the location of the ball when it became dead to address the clock issue.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Here we go again....

I disagree completely. There is no rules backing for your statement above. Giving the offensive team half-court with no time taken off makes no sense at all- to me.However, there also is no rules backing for my take that it simply a do-over if there is no accurate count.

This play is not covered definitively under NFHS rules.

The rules are present and are very clear....I'll quote them...

Rule 7-4-4 The ball is awarded out of bounds after the ball becomes dead while a team is in control, provided no infraction or end of a period is involved, as in 7-5-4.

• So, the ball becomes dead at the whistle, right? Yes.
• Was team A in team control? Yes.
• Was there a goal or infraction involved? No.

Every element of 7-4-4 has been met and refers us to 7-5-4.

Rule 7-5-4...After a dead ball as in 7-4-4, any player of the team in control shall make the throw-in from the designated spot out-of-bounds nearest to the ball when it becomes dead.

Where does it say to take it out? Closest spot! Q.E.D.
Note there is no consideration for timing errors mentioned...corrected or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Yup, all the same old lame arguments. And all the same old lame arguers insisting they're right without being able to offer any definitive rules backing for it.

Iow, same old, same old.......

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, all the same old lame arguments. And all the same old lame arguers insisting they're right without being able to offer any definitive rules backing for it.

Iow, same old, same old.......

JR:

What was lame about Camron's latest post. He quoted all the pertinent rules that apply to this play. And these are the same rules that I have also quoted in a previous thread. The rules are clear in this case. There is no do over whether it is NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA in this play.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark Dexter]

You had a 10 second backcourt count going, right?

If so, subtract that from what's showing on the game clock and go with a throw-in at mid-court.

If you didn't have a 10 second count, the throw-in is still from mid-court (nearest point to where the ball was when you blew the whistle), but unless you have definite knowledge, you leave the clock where it was. Since the ball was touched inbounds, you're not going to go all the way back to the baseline (i.e., no do-overs).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

If you didn't have a 10 second count, the throw-in is still from mid-court (nearest point to where the ball was when you blew the whistle), but unless you have definite knowledge, you leave the clock where it was. Since the ball was touched inbounds, you're not going to go all the way back to the baseline (i.e., no do-overs).

Rule to back that up?

[dave30]

I didn't have definite knowledge. My backcourt count was at 4 (I think, can't remember off the top of my head) when the player crossed midcourt. Then she dribbled into the frontcourt and was not guarded closely. My co-official blew the whistle after he noticed the clock, but the ball had been in the frontcourt for 3 or 4 seconds. It was one of those gyms where we only had one clock and it was behind me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dave30

I didn't have definite knowledge. My backcourt count was at 4 (I think, can't remember off the top of my head) when the player crossed midcourt. Then she dribbled into the frontcourt and was not guarded closely. My co-official blew the whistle after he noticed the clock, but the ball had been in the frontcourt for 3 or 4 seconds. It was one of those gyms where we only had one clock and it was behind me.

I don't think anyone has caught this and commented yet (I'm not sure, because my eyes started glazing over towards the end of the first page).
You had definite knowledge of 4 seconds to half-court. At minimum, you could have inbounded the ball at half-court with 4 seconds removed from the clock.
Again, any point with more than a minute (this number is arbitrary) on the clock, just yell towards the operator to start the clock.