New AP throw in rule

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

One last question, as a guy that is frequently the timer or scorekeeper for games, will the officials signal the table that the throw in never ended and the AP arrow should not change?

Hopefully. There is no "signal", per se, but the officials should communicate in some fashion that the arrow needs to stay with the same team, and that the next throw-in is for the violation. As a table person, now that you know the rule, you can remind the officials as well in that situation if they don't remember the change.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Ohhh okay, now I get it!
After the kicking violation on B, it is no longer an AP throw-in for A, it's a throw-in for that violation.

Thus the next time we go to the AP it remains with Team A since they never used it. That makes since...
Even though B can lose the AP twice in a row, it their own fault for kicking the ball. That's the ticket

So team B gets punished more for kicking during an AP throwin than they would for a normal throw-in.
Everyone seems to think the arrow should grant the team a "complete" throw-in. I think it should grant the team the opportunity for a throw-in, ending when the thrower gets the ball.
Switch the arrow when the thrower gets it, and all this other stuff goes away.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So team B gets punished more for kicking during an AP throwin than they would for a normal throw-in.
Everyone seems to think the arrow should grant the team a "complete" throw-in. I think it should grant the team the opportunity for a throw-in, ending when the thrower gets the ball.
Switch the arrow when the thrower gets it, and all this other stuff goes away.

Think of it this way - each violation carries it's own penalty. If you do it as you're suggesting, A could lose the right to one of those penalties. For example, if B2 fouls A2 right when A1 is handed the ball, A gets the penalty for the foul, but A also loses the penalty of having a completed AP throw-in. The same as the original example - A gets the penalty for the kicking violation, but they would lose the right to the completed AP throw-in.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So team B gets punished more for kicking during an AP throwin than they would for a normal throw-in.

What? No, they don't. Defensive kick during a non-AP throw-in results in a non-AP throw-in. Defensive kick during an AP throw-in results in a non-AP throw-in. They're punished exactly the same.

Everyone seems to think the arrow should grant the team a "complete" throw-in. I think it should grant the team the opportunity for a throw-in, ending when the thrower gets the ball.

I just disagree with this. The AP arrow doesn't grant the "opportunity" for a throw-in. It grants a throw-in, unless the offensive team screws up the throw-in.

[dkmz17]

Well, I guess am not in the camp of giving a "complete" throw in. I would think that the team receiving the throw in got the "advantage" or the "reward" of the AP arrow when the ball was not given to team B for a throw in to begin with.

[dkmz17]

For example, if B2 fouls A2 right when A1 is handed the ball, A gets the penalty for the foul, but A also loses the penalty of having a completed AP throw-in.

I disagree with the logic of the rule, the penalty occurred when Team B lost the right to the ball in the first place.

Now they can get penalized twice especially if they commit a violation on the throw in that otherwise would not have affect possession of the ball... as in the OP a kick on the throw in, Team A had the throw in and still gets the throw in after the kick... If Team A had the ball in play and Team B kicks it Team B is not "penalized", Team A just gets the ball back for a throw in. However, under the new rule, Team B suffers a "penalty" for kicking the ball on a throw in.

[Old School]

Jump ball situation, AP points to team A. Team A is given ball for throw-in. B kicked ball. A is given ball for throw-in. A successfully passes ball in and while in possession, we have another jump ball. AP is still with A. Give team A the ball again. That is wrong!! That is just plain wrong!!! Team A has gotten the jump ball twice in a row on a jump ball. That defeats the purpose of the Alternating Possession. Why does the fact that a violation occurred b4 the throw-in is completed matter? Why? The rule makes no since. Guys, you got to be deeper thinkers then this. Our profession is certainly going to go down the tubes with weak thinkers like you that's too damn afraid to stand your own ground. It's got nothing to do with what I think, but does the rule pass the smell test? This one doesn't the way it has just been defined here. Say what you want to say about me as a person but at least I stand my ground. You can't just sell me anything. We might as well just go center circle, jump it up if we're going to play this bullsh!t. How in the hell am I going to explain to the coach that the same team over and over and over will keep getting the AP because of a violation on the original throw-in. Teams are going to think we are cheating and that's going to be an even bigger problem to deal with. That's dumb, I'm sorry, until someone explains the rational to me, that's just dumb.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Now they can get penalized twice especially if they commit a violation on the throw in that otherwise would not have affect possession of the ball... as in the OP a kick on the throw in, Team A had the throw in and still gets the throw in after the kick... If Team A had the ball in play and Team B kicks it Team B is not "penalized", Team A just gets the ball back for a throw in. However, under the new rule, Team B suffers a "penalty" for kicking the ball on a throw in.

How are they getting penalized twice?

The penalty for kicking the ball during a throw-in is simply another repeated throw-in. If you take away the arrow from the throwing team also, then you're penalizing the throwing team for the defensive team's violation as well as rewarding the defensive team for committing that violation by giving them the AP. That doesn't really seem to be very fair, or logical imo.

Btw, the penalty for the kick during play is now EXACTLY the same as the penalty for a kick during a throw-in. The other team gets a throw-in and the arrow doesn't change.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

That is wrong!! That is just pain wrong!!!

Pain is what I'm feeling right now...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Well, I guess am not in the camp of giving a "complete" throw in. I would think that the team receiving the throw in got the "advantage" or the "reward" of the AP arrow when the ball was not given to team B for a throw in to begin with.

How can they be rewarded with something that they had in the first place? They had the arrow. Why should they lose it because of a violation by the other team?

That logic makes no sense at all.

[sseltser]

Why isn't the throwin after the kicked ball another AP throwin?

[truerookie]

I find it hard to believe that some of us would actually think that a violating team is being penalized for an intentional act such as kicking a ball. Like the most have stated already. The AP throw-in was not "legally" completed thus the arrow should not be switched. my 2 cents

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Jump ball situation, AP points to team A. Team A is given ball for throw-in. B kicked ball. A is given ball for throw-in. A successfully passes ball in and while in possession, we have another jump ball. AP is still with A. Give team A the ball again. That is wrong!! That is just plain wrong!!! Team A has gotten the jump ball twice in a row on a jump ball. That defeats the purpose of the Alternating Possession. Why does the fact that a violation occurred b4 the throw-in is completed matter? Why? The rule makes no since.

2) It's got nothing to do with what I think, but does the rule pass the smell test? This one doesn't the way it has just been defined here.

3) Say what you want to say about me as a person but at least I stand my ground.

4) How in the hell am I going to explain to the coach that the same team over and over and over will keep getting the AP because of a violation on the original throw-in.

Sigh.....

1) The rules make no sense to you because you simply don't understand them. You're got two completely different plays that are handled two different ways, by rule. They've got absolutely nothing to do with each other. You simply call each play by it's own applicable rule. If you don't know the rules, you come up with some convoluted nonsense trying to explain something that you can't comprehend in the first place. The throwing team did NOT get the ball twice in a row on a jump ball. They got the ball once because of a kicking violation by the other team, and they got the ball the other time because they had the AP. You simply don't understand the play and the applicable rules.

2) WTF is "passing the smell test"? You call the damn game by the rules, not by some stoopid freaking "smell test". Un-freaking-believable.....

3) Nobody is saying anything about you as a person. We're saying that you obviously aren't an official, JMO. You might be the nicest person in the whole world, but that doesn't change the fact that you know piss-all about basketball officiating. And you keep proving that over and over.

4)You tell the freaking coach that it's the freaking rule. That's exactly the same as you do any other time that you might get questioned. Who cares if the coach might happen to be as dumb as you are when it comes to the rules and doesn't understand them either?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Why isn't the throwin after the kicked ball another AP throwin?

What is the penalty for a kicked ball?

Answer: a throw-in for the other team.

The AP is a non-factor. Changing the arrow is not part of the kicked-ball penalty.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

However, under the new rule, Team B suffers a "penalty" for kicking the ball on a throw in.

Ah....that's nothing new. Team B has ALWAYS suffered a penalty for kicking the ball on a throw-in.

Originally Posted by sseltser

Why isn't the throwin after the kicked ball another AP throwin?

An AP throw-in occurs after a held ball situation, not after the ball is kicked.

BTW folks, the word is

SENSE,
NOT SINCE!

"That doesn't make any SENSE!" Not "That doesn't make any SINCE!"

Good grief!