A few situations/questions

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The same one that backs up 4.41.4 SITUATION B as stated above.


I think the case makes it pretty clear. Once the ball, as originally thrown, is determined to have no chance of entering the basket (dropped below the rim, thrown away from the rim, never reached the height of the rim and is decending, etc.), any subsequent deflection is a new action....not to be considered part of the original throw...and not eligible for 3 points.

You're right - the case play does make it clear, but you are mixing the two cases. The one you keep citing specifically mentions "try", the one I cite says "throw". If you have a "try", then you do have all the elements of when a try ends. However, if the ball is thrown, the only specific requirements listed in the rules for it to be not counted as a 3-pt. basket is if it touches a teammate within the arc, hits an official, or hits the floor. 5.2.1(c) also says none of the elements you've listed.

Philisophically I don't disagree with you that it seems silly to count your examples as 3-point baskets. It's just that the rule and case make it clear they are.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You're right - the case play does make it clear, but you are mixing the two cases. The one you keep citing specifically mentions "try", the one I cite says "throw". If you have a "try", then you do have all the elements of when a try ends. However, if the ball is thrown, the only specific requirements listed in the rules for it to be not counted as a 3-pt. basket is if it touches a teammate within the arc, hits an official, or hits the floor. 5.2.1(c) also says none of the elements you've listed.

Since the rule is effectively telling us to consider the thrown ball a try by counting it a 3, consistency would suggest that the opportunity for the two alternatives to be a 3 point basket would end with similar, if not the same, criteria.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Philisophically I don't disagree with you that it seems silly to count your examples as 3-point baskets. It's just that the rule and case make it clear they are.

If we were to treat a try and a throw differently, as you're suggesting is the case, we'd be back in the same boat as before the rule was changed...we just relocated the dilemma. For a ball that is deflected into the goal after dropping below the rim, you must (with your claim) decide if it was a try or not. If it is a try, you're agreeing it is a two (case 4.41.4b). However, you're also asserting that if it is not a try, that it will be a 3 (5.2.1c).

Hmmm....that can't be right. That is exacly why the rule was changed at all....to remove the need to decide try/non-try when the thrown ball might have been a try. It never intended to turn an obvious pass into a 3 pointer. I'm claiming an interpretation that treats the result the same whether it is a try or not...precisely the purpose of the rule change.

[just another ref]

4-41-4: The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.....

5-2-2: ......any other goal from the field counts two points.......


If I was already certain that the throw was not going into the basket before it was touched by the defender, the try had ended, thus, no three.

This situation now becomes "any other goal from the field," thus, two points.

The word certain is the key, is it not? This, like countless other calls, comes down to judgment. This is different than the ally-oop that went into the basket, where judgment of shot or pass was based on the nature of the release, the fact that he yelled, "Here ya go, Yao!" or whatever. I personally think this rule change was a good one, but do not believe it covers the situation here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-41-4: The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.....

5-2-2: ......any other goal from the field counts two points.......


If I was already certain that the throw was not going into the basket before it was touched by the defender, the try had ended, thus, no three.

This situation now becomes "any other goal from the field," thus, two points.

The central point of the discussion is not whether or not this is a try. All agree that it was not. The OP even stated that it was a pass.

In short, you are not framing the question correctly. You have compared cases A and B, but you should be looking at cases B and C. You have argued that it is not a try (case A), but rather is any other goal from the field (case B).

What you need to be discussing is whether this action constitutes (case C) "A ... thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc" which counts as three points or "any other goal from the field" which counts for two points (case B).

Now what would be your basis for choosing between those two? Which one you pick determines how many points are scored.