A few situations/questions

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the thrown ball is not at the basket, it is a pass, by definition..."to another player". Even if a defender interferes with the ball, it is a pass. When that defender redirects the ball, it is still a pass. That defender is the player who has tapped the ball into the basket...even accidentally...(the defender's touching of the ball doesn't end a try, however).

But doesn't a pass imply that the ball was thrown? That's the only requirement for this rule.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

in situation 1, i was thinking it should be 2 points, but im not exactly sure why. something keeps popping in my head with the words "unobstructed" but i can't find it in the book and it wouldn't explain a partially blocked 3point shot that goes in. This one I guess I am looking for advice on where to look in the rulebook to verify either side whether its 2 or 3 points.

There is no such language from what I can remember. This is also not a shot, it is a pass that was deflected by the defense.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

in situation 2, I was thinking this was handled very well. Just wanted to see if there was any input from officials to this odd situation.

All that I can say is that you should shoot everything in the order that they took place. I cannot comment about what was said and if there should have been Ts or not.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

in situation 3, it appeared that the official was trying to give a "make-up call" (B1 fouled A1, foul was not called, team B should have gotten the ball on the over-and-back or out-of-bounds). I'm sure most of you would have called the foul in the first place, but if for some reason you did not call the foul, which team would you reward possession to?

With all due respect, what the hell is a make up call? This is coach speak more than anything.

And you would be wrong about what most of us would do. First I did not see the play and it is likely the conversation was about other contact and not the contact you claim took place (the effort for the ball could have been where the "foul" was referred to). I know you think the exchange that you heard might be a key to something, but it could have been only part of the story. For one did you hear all the other conversations this official had with this coach? Based on the fact it was not your game and you likely were not watching every minute, it is possible there is more to this situation than you are letting on.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

I have a couple plays that I believe illustrates the logic behind my assertion that it is two points.

A1, from the corner, throws the ball towards the basket. If it goes in, we all agree that it is a three. However, instead of going in, it is an airball, passing over the rim. A very short B1, who is in a rebounding position on the weakside attempts to get the ball. Instead of catching it cleanly, B1 taps it back up and into the basket. By the literal interpretation group, this would be a 3 as the ball was thrown and only a defender touched the ball. Do we really think this is what was desired by the rulesmakers????

Another similar play:

A1, throws the ball towards the basket. Instead of going in, it hits the front of the iron. A5 and B5 go up for the rebound. B5, after the ball has rebounded 4 feet off the rim, is the only one to touch the ball and taps it back up and into the basket. By the literal interpretation group, this would be a 3 as the ball was thrown and only a defender touched the ball. Do we really think this is what was desired by the rulesmakers????

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I don't really disagree.

In the OP, the pass was thrown in the general direction of the basket (from the corner outside the arc to the post). Why wouldn't it be a 3?

It wasn't thrown near the basket. It was going near the basket in only two dimensions in a three dimensional world. The defender was solely responsible for causing the ball to go toward the basket. It was no longer a ball thrown by the original thrower but a ball batted into the basket by a defender.

[Old School]

Situation one is tricky because we have a pass that was deflected, and then it went in. At best, you can rule it like an alley-oop but only in this case, scored by the defense. What's important to know here is where on the floor was the ball deflected. That is where the shot was placed from, which tells you if it's a 2-point score or a 3-point score.

S#2 is not that difficult to understand and I would rule the exact way they did by giving the player one technical for his comment. Good the officials got together and corrected the misunderstanding.

S#3 is a perfect example of what not to tell a coach. Also, if the player picked up the ball and was bumped out of bounds, you have to either call a foul or it's the other teams ball. You can not, not call a foul here. We are not here to protect players. This is bad officiating all around on this example. The coach had a valid point. If you're not going to call a foul, then it should be our ball. Got nothing to do with teaching the players, just call the game.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Do we really think this is what was desired by the rulesmakers????

Camron - I don't know; I'll have to ask next time I see one of them.

Again, I don't really disagree with your assertions, but can you give me a rule or case that states otherwise? If the rule specifically stated "try" only, then once the ball goes below the rim, we could say the 3-pt. try has ended, and now it's just a live ball entering the basket that would be counted as 2. But the rule doesn't say that. Maybe that's the "trade-off" that the rules-makers are allowing - it takes the judgement call away as to whether it is a try or pass, but in exchange it might allow some "crazy-looking" 3-point baskets.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Situation one is tricky because we have a pass that was deflected, and then it went in. At best, you can rule it like an alley-oop but only in this case, scored by the defense. What's important to know here is where on the floor was the ball deflected. That is where the shot was placed from, which tells you if it's a 2-point score or a 3-point score.

Rules reference, please?

[JRutledge]

I am in the purpose and intent group of this discussion. I do not think the intent of this rule was to allow all passes deflected by the defense to be apart of that interpretation. Now if the NF wants to clear this up, they do have the casebook to do so.

Peace

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A1, throws the ball towards the basket. Instead of going in, it hits the front of the iron. A5 and B5 go up for the rebound. B5, after the ball has rebounded 4 feet off the rim, is the only one to touch the ball and taps it back up and into the basket. By the literal interpretation group, this would be a 3 as the ball was thrown and only a defender touched the ball. Do we really think this is what was desired by the rulesmakers????

The point is, where was the defender when he touched the ball. Inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2 points. No different than instead of B5 hitting it, A5 hit it back in. Where is A5 standing, inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Rules reference, please?

Why did you even ask?

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

How would you like to judge whether that last-second heave from half-court that goes in was a try or just a pass to a teammate standing near the basket?

Well, I would love to. That's why we do this, isn't it?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

But doesn't a pass imply that the ball was thrown? That's the only requirement for this rule.

When does the ball stop being a thrown ball and take on a new status?

I assert that the ball is no longer a thrown ball when it's direction is substantially changed by a defender or when it clearly will not go in on it's own. See my two examples I just posted to illustrate that very point.

The rules don't actually say but I can be certain that a ball that has rebounded off the front of the rim and is heading directly away from the basket is no longer a thrown ball.

The rule doesn't, as one camp would argue, allow for that...they'd say its a thrown ball until it hits a teammate, floor, or official as the rule, as written, doesn't indicate any other way for the throw to end. As that group interprets the rule, all rebounds (from a throw from behind the arc) that are tapped in by the defense are still a 3.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Old School

The point is, where was the defender when he touched the ball. Inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2 points. No different than instead of B5 hitting it, A5 hit it back in. Where is A5 standing, inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2.

Please, I don't need your help. You're utterly and completely wrong...as usual.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

With all due respect, what the hell is a make up call? This is coach speak more than anything.

And you would be wrong about what most of us would do. First I did not see the play and it is likely the conversation was about other contact and not the contact you claim took place (the effort for the ball could have been where the "foul" was referred to). I know you think the exchange that you heard might be a key to something, but it could have been only part of the story. For one did you hear all the other conversations this official had with this coach? Based on the fact it was not your game and you likely were not watching every minute, it is possible there is more to this situation than you are letting on.

Peace

I was sitting by the scorers table right where the play happened (I was seated there to help the new kid operate the scoreboard). The ref basically admitted seeing the slap on the arm and bump out of bounds but didnt call the foul. It was pretty apparent that he meant that it was a foul, he didnt call the foul, but didnt feel it was fair to give the ball to team B so he was going to give it to team A since it was obvious fouls that caused the play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

by the way, whenever possible, any references to where to look in the rulebook would be highly appreciated. thanks

The NFHS has a conflict in its rulings on the first play. Both of these case plays appear in the 2006-07 Case Book. So you have to take your pick until the Federation decides to clarify. Personally, I would award two points if the touch took place after the ball had fallen below the level of the ring, but three if the touch took place while the ball was on the way up or still above the ring level.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1's three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.