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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:01pm
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A few situations/questions

just a couple of situations/questions that i would like your input on. thanks in advance.

- HS summer league game. A2 is attempting to pass the ball to A4 from right wing beyond 3pt line to right block posting up. B4 jumps in front of the play and deflects the pass in the air, off the backboard into the basket. How many points are awarded? They awarded us 3pts, but for some reason I had the feeling it should have only been 2, but I cant find any reference to this type of situation in the rulebook. Discussed with officials after the game (we lost by 7) and they weren't quite sure either and said they would get back to me.

- AAU, 8th grade level. Early on in the game, there were several situations where subs entered the game with jerseys untucked and were warned by the officials, subs entered the game without being beckoned by the officials (i.e. 2 freethrows being shot), etc... several warnings were issued and at one point two players from each team were not allowed into the game as their jerseys were not tucked in. Down the stretch with about 2 minutes to go, A1 is waiting at the scorers table to sub into the game as a foul was called. One of the officials (R1) had checked the foul situation with the scorebook a few possessions before so even though the scoreboard indicated 10 team fouls, he knew it was only 9. As the players were lining up for the freethrow(s) with R2 on the baseline with the ball about to administer to the shooter A3 (lead?),
R1 is at the table telling the scoreboard folks to fix the team fouls and beckons for A1 to enter the game. R2 was focusing his attention on the players lining up, and sees A1 run into the game (no horn or whistle had sounded, and since he saw his partner at the table, probably did not see him get called into the game). R2 whistles A1 for a technical foul, R1 approaches R2 but R2 turns away saying something about "they have to learn somehow", A1 yells "this is BullS#!T!!!" and R2 whistles A1 for second T. R1 finally grabs R2 and tells him he beckoned A1 into the game, and that the scoreboard was incorrect with the team fouls. How would you guys handle this situation? What ended up happening is A3 shoots the one and one, only one Technical foul is called on A1 (im assuming for the cussing/disrespect/unsportsmanlike reaction) and team B shoots two freethrows, ball is awarded to team B at halfcourt.

- HS summer league game, my team is waiting to play the next game so we watch as this situation unfolds. Offense player A1 dribbles the ball across halfcourt, and as B1 pressures A1, he slaps A1's forearm, causing the ball to go into the backcourt. B1 does not touch the ball or hand, clearly fouling A1 on the forearm/elbow area. The ball is headed out of bounds in the backcourt, so A1 runs and tries to retrieve the ball and save it in bounds, but as he grabs the ball B1 nudges A1 out of bounds while holding the ball. Official rewards the to team A. B coach asks official why no out-of-bounds or backcourt was called, official responds "your best scorer fouled him twice, coach, want me to call the foul?". Coach: "if my guy fouled him, call the foul, he's gotta learn". Official: "its not my job to teach your team, coach your team, i'll officiate".
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:06pm
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- 2 pts

- I would have done it that way as well

- He's right, his job is to officiate not teach/coach. He just didn't do it so well in that play.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
- 2 pts

- I would have done it that way as well

- He's right, his job is to officiate not teach/coach. He just didn't do it so well in that play.
Agree with 2 and 3.

In 1, why wouldn't it be 3 points? It was a thrown ball from outside the arc, and it was not touched by a teammate.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
just a couple of situations/questions that i would like your input on. thanks in advance.

- HS summer league game. A2 is attempting to pass the ball to A4 from right wing beyond 3pt line to right block posting up. B4 jumps in front of the play and deflects the pass in the air, off the backboard into the basket. How many points are awarded? They awarded us 3pts, but for some reason I had the feeling it should have only been 2, but I cant find any reference to this type of situation in the rulebook. Discussed with officials after the game (we lost by 7) and they weren't quite sure either and said they would get back to me.
If you have a clear pass deflected this is a 2 all the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
- AAU, 8th grade level. Early on in the game, there were several situations where subs entered the game with jerseys untucked and were warned by the officials, subs entered the game without being beckoned by the officials (i.e. 2 freethrows being shot), etc... several warnings were issued and at one point two players from each team were not allowed into the game as their jerseys were not tucked in. Down the stretch with about 2 minutes to go, A1 is waiting at the scorers table to sub into the game as a foul was called. One of the officials (R1) had checked the foul situation with the scorebook a few possessions before so even though the scoreboard indicated 10 team fouls, he knew it was only 9. As the players were lining up for the freethrow(s) with R2 on the baseline with the ball about to administer to the shooter A3 (lead?),
R1 is at the table telling the scoreboard folks to fix the team fouls and beckons for A1 to enter the game. R2 was focusing his attention on the players lining up, and sees A1 run into the game (no horn or whistle had sounded, and since he saw his partner at the table, probably did not see him get called into the game). R2 whistles A1 for a technical foul, R1 approaches R2 but R2 turns away saying something about "they have to learn somehow", A1 yells "this is BullS#!T!!!" and R2 whistles A1 for second T. R1 finally grabs R2 and tells him he beckoned A1 into the game, and that the scoreboard was incorrect with the team fouls. How would you guys handle this situation? What ended up happening is A3 shoots the one and one, only one Technical foul is called on A1 (im assuming for the cussing/disrespect/unsportsmanlike reaction) and team B shoots two freethrows, ball is awarded to team B at halfcourt.
I am so confused I have no idea what you are actually asking. You shoot the FTs in order and it appears that took place. Outside of that I am confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
- HS summer league game, my team is waiting to play the next game so we watch as this situation unfolds. Offense player A1 dribbles the ball across halfcourt, and as B1 pressures A1, he slaps A1's forearm, causing the ball to go into the backcourt. B1 does not touch the ball or hand, clearly fouling A1 on the forearm/elbow area. The ball is headed out of bounds in the backcourt, so A1 runs and tries to retrieve the ball and save it in bounds, but as he grabs the ball B1 nudges A1 out of bounds while holding the ball. Official rewards the to team A. B coach asks official why no out-of-bounds or backcourt was called, official responds "your best scorer fouled him twice, coach, want me to call the foul?". Coach: "if my guy fouled him, call the foul, he's gotta learn". Official: "its not my job to teach your team, coach your team, i'll officiate".
I have no idea. It sounds like there is more to the situation.

Peace
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
In 1, why wouldn't it be 3 points? It was a thrown ball from outside the arc, and it was not touched by a teammate.
The rule is for throws that are behind the arch without being touched. A pass that is deflected is an entirely different situation.

Peace
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The rule is for throws that are behind the arch without being touched. A pass that is deflected is an entirely different situation.

Peace
I thought the rule said "touched by a teammate inside the arc"?
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I thought the rule said "touched by a teammate inside the arc"?
The interpretation is to make clear what to do on an alley oop or errant pass near the basket. This is clearly a pass that deflects into the basket as a result of a defender touching it. This is not quite the same thing if you ask me.

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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:27pm
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in situation 1, i was thinking it should be 2 points, but im not exactly sure why. something keeps popping in my head with the words "unobstructed" but i can't find it in the book and it wouldn't explain a partially blocked 3point shot that goes in. This one I guess I am looking for advice on where to look in the rulebook to verify either side whether its 2 or 3 points.

in situation 2, I was thinking this was handled very well. Just wanted to see if there was any input from officials to this odd situation.

in situation 3, it appeared that the official was trying to give a "make-up call" (B1 fouled A1, foul was not called, team B should have gotten the ball on the over-and-back or out-of-bounds). I'm sure most of you would have called the foul in the first place, but if for some reason you did not call the foul, which team would you reward possession to?
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:31pm
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by the way, whenever possible, any references to where to look in the rulebook would be highly appreciated. thanks
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Agree with 2 and 3.

In 1, why wouldn't it be 3 points? It was a thrown ball from outside the arc, and it was not touched by a teammate.
Good point.

NFHS game 3 pts (stupid rule)
NCAA game 2 points.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The interpretation is to make clear what to do on an alley oop or errant pass near the basket. This is clearly a pass that deflects into the basket as a result of a defender touching it. This is not quite the same thing if you ask me.

Peace
But, I don't think there is a differentiation between a pass and a shot to award the 3. That's why 5-2-1 clearly states, "A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown. "

In the case of an alley-oop pass, usually it's a teammate that touches it before it goes in, therefore it would count as 2. But if a defender deflects it, even inside the arc, I believe it is still 3 points.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I thought the rule said "touched by a teammate inside the arc"?
This point has been heavily debated here in the past. There is one camp that says it's a 3 if it was originally thrown from behind the arc no matter the direction of the throw....literal interpretation of the rule group.

There is another camp that knows when and why the rule was added that says it is only 2....intent and purpose group.

I'm in the intent and purpose camp.

The intent and purpose of that entire rule, as was stated when it was changed, was to not require an official to distinguish between a shot and a pass when the thrown ball went into the hoop. Every single case that has ever been published involved a ball thrown in the general vicinity of the basket....alley oop or shot??? Even when deflected, the cases all still involved a ball thrown toward the basket. Never has a case been presented where a ball was thrown away from the basket that was deflected in where the result was 3 points.

If the thrown ball is not at the basket, it is a pass, by definition..."to another player". Even if a defender interferes with the ball, it is a pass. When that defender redirects the ball, it is still a pass. That defender is the player who has tapped the ball into the basket...even accidentally...(the defender's touching of the ball doesn't end a try, however).
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Good point.

NFHS game 3 pts (stupid rule).
I think the purpose is to take out the judgement of whether it's a try or pass. How would you like to judge whether that last-second heave from half-court that goes in was a try or just a pass to a teammate standing near the basket?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
NCAA game 2 points.
I think you're right on that one - I'm going home to look that one up.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
This point has been heavily debated here in the past. There is one camp that says it's a 3 if it was originally thrown from behind the arc no matter the direction of the throw....literal interpretation of the rule group.

There is another camp that knows when and why the rule was added that says it is only 2....intent and purpose group.

I'm in the intent and purpose camp.

The intent and purpose of that entire rule, as was stated when it was changed, was to not require an official to distinguish between a shot and a pass when the thrown ball went into the hoop. Every single case that has ever been published involved a ball thrown in the general vicinity of the basket....alley oop or shot??? Even when deflected, the cases all still involved a ball thrown toward the basket. Never has a case been presented where a ball was thrown away from the basket that was deflected in where the result was 3 points.

If the thrown ball is not at the basket, it is a pass, by definition..."to another player". Even if a defender interferes with the ball, it is a pass. When that defender redirects the ball, it is still a pass. That defender is the player who has tapped the ball into the basket...even accidentally...(the defender's touching of the ball doesn't end a try, however).
I don't really disagree.

In the OP, the pass was thrown in the general direction of the basket (from the corner outside the arc to the post). Why wouldn't it be a 3?
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 04:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The interpretation is to make clear what to do on an alley oop or errant pass near the basket. This is clearly a pass that deflects into the basket as a result of a defender touching it. This is not quite the same thing if you ask me.

Peace
I have to disagree, Rut. 5-2-1 and 5.2.1 both state a "thrown ball" with no restriction that the ball needs to be a try or an alley-oop or anywhere near the basket. IIRC, the new rule was put in to eliminate the need for interpretation on the official's part for this exact play. If the ball is released by team A behind the 3 point arc, and goes in with no subsequent touching by A or by the floor, you score 3 points in NFHS.
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