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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 11:43am
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Goaltending/BI in high school vs. college

A little embarassed to admit that I don't know the rule on this one, but I thought this would be the best place to go to find out...
My question is...Is it legal according to NCAA rules block a shot and pin it against the backboard if it has already hit the backboard if the ball is still below the height of the rim? I tried searching through the NCAA rule book on this one. I know we would automatically count the bucket if this play happened in a high school game, but I was not sure about college. In discussing this play with others, I heard conflicting opinions. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 11:57am
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This is the NCAA INTERP: I believe NFHS maybe similiar.

The violation called basket interference applies in the following situations:
(1) during either a free throw or an attempt for a field goal; (2) whenever
the ball is touched on, in or above the basket, or (3) when the ball is
touched while it is above the ring and while any part of the ball is within
the cylinder.

Goaltending applies (1) during a try for a field goal or free throw, or (2)
when a tapped ball is in flight toward the tapper’s basket. The ball may not
be touched while it is on its downward flight during a try for field goal while
any part of the ball is above ring level and has the possibility of entering
the basket.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 11:58am
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Under both NCAA and NFHS rules, it is legal to touch the ball on a shot after the ball has touched the backboard as long as the ball is still on the way up. Iow, it's a judgment call.

Board--> touch on way up---> legal.

Board-->touch on way down---> illegal.

Forget about the height of the rim. That's irrelevant under the rules.

And no, you wouldn't automatically count the basket under high school rules either. Both NCAA and NFHS rules are the same.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:02pm.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 11:58am
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The GT/BI rule is exactly the same at both levels. And you would not count a basket for pinning the ball against the backboard at either level. Not sure where you got that idea from. BTW, the ball must be completely above the rim in order to have GT, with a chance to go in and on its downward spiral. If either one of these 3 things I listed are not present, you cannot have GT at all.

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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 12:23pm
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I believe the confusion maybe with the NBA rule. Unless the rule has changed, it's illegal in the NBA.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Board-->touch on way down---> illegal.
If it still has a chance to go in. If it's a wild shot that has no chance, it's technically not GT. That's a judgment call, obviously.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 12:46pm
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Let me get this straight. Dinosaur, you're saying that if the ball goes up, misses, starts down and gets below the rim, it's still illegal to pin it against the backboard? Do I misunderstand?
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 01:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleebo
A little embarassed to admit that I don't know the rule on this one, but I thought this would be the best place to go to find out...
My question is...Is it legal according to NCAA rules block a shot and pin it against the backboard if it has already hit the backboard if the ball is still below the height of the rim? I tried searching through the NCAA rule book on this one. I know we would automatically count the bucket if this play happened in a high school game, but I was not sure about college. In discussing this play with others, I heard conflicting opinions. Thanks in advance for your help.
Hold the phone! I got goaltending here. I have never ever seen a case where it wasn't called a score when the ball hit the backbroad first. I'm not quite sure I'm going there. I'm not splittng the difference between if the ball is still going up after it hits the b/b. Once it hits the b/b, defenders should know to leave it along.

Count the bucket!

I actually saw this happen at a recent camp. The ball hit the bottom of the b/b and was probably going to still go in. Defender blocked it, we all got GT. Clinician, coaches didn't say a word. I was Lead and I saw the ball hit the b/b but slightly below the rim, and thought to myself is that a GT? Next thing I know we got whistles coming from everywhere, count the bucket. From C and Trail, that's going to be hard to pickup if it's below the rim and it's still going up after it hit the b/b. The way they want us to make this call, the C and T has primary and at best (game speed with other things to watch) they are good to determine if it even hit the b/b and if it did, I got GT. From lead you have a better view, provided it's on your side, but you're not responsible for that call. I'm not going there and I'm not splitting hairs here. Players should know that if the ball hits the b/b, 9.99999 times out of 10 it's going to be a GT. Take your chances if you want but don't get mad if it don't go your way.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 01:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Hold the phone! I got goaltending here.

Count the bucket!
I'm not the one that is the expert on GT, since I don't do a lot of boys' games. I mean, I'm not the one that pretends to be an expert on GT

But I'm pretty sure that the penalty for GT isn't to count the bucket, even if the ball goes in. The ball is dead when the infraction is committed, and the penalty is to award 2 points (or 3 under certain circs).
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Hold the phone! I got goaltending here. I have never ever seen a case where it wasn't called a score when the ball hit the backbroad first. I'm not quite sure I'm going there. I'm not splittng the difference between if the ball is still going up after it hits the b/b. Once it hits the b/b, defenders should know to leave it along.

Count the bucket!
Sigh....it just never stops.

No, JMO, it is not necessarily GT if the ball is touched after it has hit the board. That is NBA and rec league rules ONLY. Find somebody with a rulebook--NCAA or NFHS, they're both the same-- and get them to read you the definition of GT or BI.

Or alternatively you can get someone to explain the posts above in this thread.

If you don't know the damn rules, don't comment on them. All you're doing is confusing the non-officials(like yourself) reading this forum.

Lah-freaking-me.......
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 02:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Hold the phone! I got goaltending here. I have never ever seen a case where it wasn't called a score when the ball hit the backbroad first. I'm not quite sure I'm going there. I'm not splittng the difference between if the ball is still going up after it hits the b/b. Once it hits the b/b, defenders should know to leave it along.

Count the bucket!

I actually saw this happen at a recent camp. The ball hit the bottom of the b/b and was probably going to still go in. Defender blocked it, we all got GT. Clinician, coaches didn't say a word. I was Lead and I saw the ball hit the b/b but slightly below the rim, and thought to myself is that a GT? Next thing I know we got whistles coming from everywhere, count the bucket. From C and Trail, that's going to be hard to pickup if it's below the rim and it's still going up after it hit the b/b. The way they want us to make this call, the C and T has primary and at best (game speed with other things to watch) they are good to determine if it even hit the b/b and if it did, I got GT. From lead you have a better view, provided it's on your side, but you're not responsible for that call. I'm not going there and I'm not splitting hairs here. Players should know that if the ball hits the b/b, 9.99999 times out of 10 it's going to be a GT. Take your chances if you want but don't get mad if it don't go your way.
I'm 99% certain that a similar play happened in the NCAA tournament last year and the play was correctly allowed to stand.
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 02:21pm
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[QUOTE=Old School]Hold the phone! I got goaltending here. I have never ever seen a case where it wasn't called a score when the ball hit the backbroad first. I'm not quite sure I'm going there. I'm not splittng the difference between if the ball is still going up after it hits the b/b. [Quote=Old School]

Why wouldn't you split that difference? That's what the rule about GT says - the ball MUST be on it's downward flight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Once it hits the b/b, defenders should know to leave it along.
Why? Why should they leave it alone? Just because it hit the backboard? Wrong rule set here, pal...
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 04:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
Why wouldn't you split that difference? That's what the rule about GT says - the ball MUST be on it's downward flight.

Why? Why should they leave it alone? Just because it hit the backboard? Wrong rule set here, pal...
They should leave it along because the risk of the official calling it a GT is very very likely. We're talking a spilt second here, was or wasn't? If I'm not sure, but I am sure you cobber it off the b/b, we're going the other way, count the bucket. That's a tough call to get and you don't want to miss an obvious GT. Even from the Lead position where I was, I still was unsure if the ball had started it's downward fly or not, very close. One thing I was sure about is the defender hit it after it hit the b/b. One of the tough things about being an official, we don't get the benefit of instant replay. Maybe that will change in the future but we're not there yet which means you need to rely on your judgment. It's a judgement call and sometimes we're going to get it wrong. But you know what, if you're going to go for the .000001 time that you got there b4 the downward flight. Then so be it. I still sleep good at night.

Oh, and Rainmaker, please define for me what is the difference between counting the bucket 2 or 3, or awarding the bucket, 2 or 3?

Newsflash for you JR, people are not perfect and guess what? Officials are people. One more thing, what did you do to my San Antonio Spurs tread?
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 04:50pm
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More proof you aren't an official.

The rule of thumb is if you aren't sure you DON'T CALL IT!
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Old Tue May 29, 2007, 05:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
One thing I was sure about is the defender hit it after it hit the b/b.
Who cares? Touching the ball AFTER it hits the backboard is NOT goaltending, it's not BI...it's nothing. The reason no one at this "camp" said anything about the call is probably because it was so close - to the observers it probably looked like the ball was on it's downward flight...I can guarantee you that - if this was any kind of legitimate HS or NCAA camp - their not saying anything about the call had NOTHING to do with the fact that the ball had hit the backboard...again, that is not in the NFHS or NCAA rule sets...
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