Pick / Charge

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's different concepts involved depending on whether the offensive player has control of the ball or not.
1) If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions. The required distance is 1-2 steps, but the maximum that must be allowed is 2 steps.
2) If the player does have the ball, then "guarding" principles are involved instead. To establish a legal guarding position, the defender does not have to allow time and distance. The only requirements to establish an initial legal guarding position are (a) the defender must establish himself in the offensive player's path with both feet on the court, and (b) the defender must be facing the offensive player at that particular time. If the defensive player can do that and then maintain that legal guarding position, the onus for contact lies with the offensive player. There is no requirement for the defender to give any distance at all after establishing an initial legal guarding position.

Make any sense now?

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder for several steps while the defender was waiting to cut off his path.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

When would you prefer the "transition" to take place? How would that be enforced?

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

When would you prefer the "transition" to take place? How would that be enforced?

I would prefer the player catching the pass be afforded the same "time and
distance" he had the .1 of a second before he caught the pass. It could be
enforced the same way an illegal screen is enforced, but since the player with the ball is fouled it would be a blocking foul on the defender.

The wording and the specific example in the rulebook protects an offensive player running down the court without the ball: "If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions."

It would seem the thinking involved with "guarding principles" for the player
with the ball assumes he is dribbling into a defender or otherwise has the opportunity to see him and avoid him. "Screening principles" assume a player may be blind screened or otherwise be put in a situation where it is physically impossible to avoid the screener (so he is given "time and space")....this is the same situation a pass receiver may be in.

Camron Rust said:
"Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players [are]. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder..."

Well, yes. If you are running away from the ball you must look back over your shoulder to catch it. A long pass could be in the air 1-2 seconds. Even at half speed players could move 15-30 feet in that time. Again, the rules allow the same offensive player "time and space" when the pass is in the air, but the instant he catches it those same rules no longer apply. A defender behind the play can gauge the pass, receiver, speed, etc. and step in (to LGP) the instant the pass is caught *legally*. Even the NFL has rules to protect receivers in this type of case.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

I would prefer the player catching the pass be afforded the same "time and
distance" he had the .1 of a second before he caught the pass. It could be
enforced the same way an illegal screen is enforced, but since the player with the ball is fouled it would be a blocking foul on the defender.

The wording and the specific example in the rulebook protects an offensive player running down the court without the ball: "If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions."

It would seem the thinking involved with "guarding principles" for the player
with the ball assumes he is dribbling into a defender or otherwise has the opportunity to see him and avoid him. "Screening principles" assume a player may be blind screened or otherwise be put in a situation where it is physically impossible to avoid the screener (so he is given "time and space")....this is the same situation a pass receiver may be in.

Camron Rust said:
"Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players [are]. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder..."

Well, yes. If you are running away from the ball you must look back over your shoulder to catch it. A long pass could be in the air 1-2 seconds. Even at half speed players could move 15-30 feet in that time. Again, the rules allow the same offensive player "time and space" when the pass is in the air, but the instant he catches it those same rules no longer apply. A defender behind the play can gauge the pass, receiver, speed, etc. and step in (to LGP) the instant the pass is caught *legally*. Even the NFL has rules to protect receivers in this type of case.

Remember, the maximum requirement for time and distance on a screen is 2 steps. 15 feet maybe. 30? Not a chance. If a player is turning his head to catch a pass, and the pass takes that long in the air, he's got a chance to turn his head to see the path. Also, that's what his teammates are for.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Remember, the maximum requirement for time and distance on a screen is 2 steps. 15 feet maybe. 30? Not a chance. If a player is turning his head to catch a pass, and the pass takes that long in the air, he's got a chance to turn his head to see the path. Also, that's what his teammates are for.

I'm not saying 2 steps is 30 feet. I'm saying a defender could move 15-30 feet while a pass is in the air (1-2 seconds). The receiver could check his path, turn for the ball, and the defender could move into his path. It's not like this type of collision is rare. They happen all the time. Again, the point is the defender doesn't have to give *any space* according to the rule once the pass is caught. Why do you even mention "2 steps"?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

I'm not saying 2 steps is 30 feet. I'm saying a defender could move 15-30 feet while a pass is in the air (1-2 seconds). The receiver could check his path, turn for the ball, and the defender could move into his path. It's not like this type of collision is rare. They happen all the time. Again, the point is the defender doesn't have to give *any space* according to the rule once the pass is caught. Why do you even mention "2 steps"?

The receiver doesn't have to run looking back over his/her shoulder. The fact that the player is not looking where they are going doesn't absolve them of contact of a defender jumps into their path after they look away.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The receiver doesn't have to run looking back over his/her shoulder.

If the ball is thrown from behind a player as he runs down the court, how is
he going to catch it if he doesn't look back?

[Adam]

I mentioned it because you're saying he could go 30 feeet during that time. My point is that's irrelevant even if the player doesn't have the ball; because this player only gets two steps maximum. He could be able to travel the length of the floor while the pass is in the air, but unless he can do it in two steps, it doesn't matter whether he has the ball or not.

Basically, my point is the distance a player can move isn't relevant.

I know what you're saying, but the fact is once a player gets the ball he has to expect to be guarded. That's basketball.

And you say these "happen all the time?" Not in my experience. Most offensive players have learned to look for it.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And you say these "happen all the time?" Not in my experience. Most offensive players have learned to look for it.

They happen often enough for the rules to protect players *without* the
ball in the same circumstance.... The rules also offer protection (time and distance) for players without the ball even if the screener is right in his line of sight. I would say the reason they don't happen more often is the *defenders* know the offensive player receiving a pass can often neither see them or avoid them. They understand if they step in front of receiver, moving at speed, and turning his head to see the ball (so he can catch it) there will likely be a violent collision. The defender doesn't want to get a head full of teeth (or a mouthful
of face).

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

But that's not when the transition occurs. As soon as the "reciever's" (A1) team has the ball, B1 is guarding him (or, at least, has the opportunity to get into a legal guarding position). The only difference is then guarding a player with the ball vs. guarding a player without the ball.