Legal Guarding Position

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The dribbler's just gonna stand there for 5 seconds while his defender is on the floor? I don't think you're ever going to have to worry about this.

He doesn't have to stand there for 5 seconds. You could be at 4 on your count when the defender falls, just about to strike 5. Or, B1 could fall down just before B2 steps in to guard A1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He doesn't have to stand there for 5 seconds. You could be at 4 on your count when the defender falls, just about to strike 5. Or, B1 could fall down just before B2 steps in to guard A1.

And your call is, Snaqs?

LGP or not?

[Adam]

LGP with regard to responsibility for contact? Sure, if the contact is against the defender's feet.
With regard to closely guarded counts? No, I don't think so. Do we consider the player closely guarded if the defender has his back to the dribbler?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He doesn't have to stand there for 5 seconds. You could be at 4 on your count when the defender falls, just about to strike 5. Or, B1 could fall down just before B2 steps in to guard A1.

I won't make the 5 second call unless there's another defender within the 6 feet requirement.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I won't make the 5 second call unless there's another defender within the 6 feet requirement.

i don't think I would either, I was just saying the possibility of having to make the decision isn't as miniscule as Scrapper implied.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1) LGP with regard to responsibility for contact? Sure, if the contact is against the defender's feet.

2) Do we consider the player closely guarded if the defender has his back to the dribbler?

1) Are you talking about LGP as opposed to having a legal position on the playing court? They're completely different concepts, which I'm sure that you know. Under NCAA rules, lying down isn't a legal position on the playing court. Under FED rules, it was and maybe still is, but the applicable case play has been removed.

2) Rule 4-23-3(b) says that the defender is not not required to continue facing the opponent.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Are you talking about LGP as opposed to having a legal position on the playing court? They're completely different concepts, which I'm sure that you know. Under NCAA rules, lying down isn't a legal position on the playing court. Under FED rules, it was and maybe still is, but the applicable case play has been removed.

2) Rule 4-23-3(b) says that the defender is not not required to continue facing the opponent.

1) You're right, I was over thinking it.

2) Dammit! I need my rule book here.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Are you talking about LGP as opposed to having a legal position on the playing court? They're completely different concepts, which I'm sure that you know. Under NCAA rules, lying down isn't a legal position on the playing court. Under FED rules, it was and maybe still is, but the applicable case play has been removed.

2) Rule 4-23-3(b) says that the defender is not not required to continue facing the opponent.

I am still ending my 5-count, and I will continue to employ the terms "normal defense" and "actively guarding", both judgement interpretations, until I am advised to do otherwise.

[JugglingReferee]

I can't see myself continuing a 5s count.

[blindzebra]

B1 might be guarding Matta's gum, but he ain't guarding A1.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by mick

I am still ending my 5-count, and I will continue to employ the terms "normal defense" and "actively guarding", both judgement interpretations, until I am advised to do otherwise.

If asked in a game situation, I'll do the same thing and cite mick as my source.

[Splute]

I would like to think if B1 is lying face down, that A1 could have his head and shoulders past B1 and thus end the count as well.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

From another forum.....

Defensive player B1 has established a legal guarding position on dribbler A1, and you have started a 5-second closely guarded count. The defender now slips and falls to the floor, face-down, in front of the dribbler. Do you continue your closely-guarded count while B1 is laying face down on the court?

It doesn't make sense, but by all "definitions" (or lack of definition), I would lean toward the count continuing.

B1 established LGP.
B1 is still in the path of the dribbler and still has LGP.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CoachP

B1 is still in the path of the dribbler and still has LGP.

Rule 4-23-3(a) isn't relevant or doesn't apply?

[mick]

Originally Posted by CoachP

It doesn't make sense, but by all "definitions" (or lack of definition), I would lean toward the count continuing.

B1 established LGP.
B1 is still in the path of the dribbler and still has LGP.

Ah, but if the kid fell down on Count-1, with his head within 5' of the ball handler and his feet 10'-10" away from the dribbler, I am guessing Counts-2 thru 5 could become, at least a bit, tedious.