legal guarding position

Dbyb · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 12:44pm

I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dbyb
I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

Welcome Dbyb.
I only see this play a couple times a year.
But, what I see is the dribbler attempt to squeeze between two stationary defenders and then fall, leaving the defenders standing.
My no-call is closely followed by "How can that not be a foul!!?!!"
mick

bob jenkins · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dbyb
I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

If the dribbler gets the head and shoulders past, then the defense is responsible *IF THEY MOVE AND COUASE CONTACT*

I've got a no-call in your play.

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dbyb
I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

Player control foul (if you call anything) as per case book play 10.6.2SitC. That's just about the exact play you are describing.

Camron Rust · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 01:36pm

This is most definitely NOT a block. In your case, with the defenders both being knocked to the floor (not flopping), it's a PC foul every time. If the defenders had been left standing (or flopped), no call.

Easy rule of thumb on just about all fouls: A player has to actually DO something to get called for a foul. Standing still is not DOing something. They have to move some part of their body to cause contact.

footlocker · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Welcome Dbyb.
I only see this play a couple times a year.
But, what I see is the dribbler attempt to squeeze between two stationary defenders and then fall, leaving the defenders standing.
My no-call is closely followed by "How can that not be a foul!!?!!"
mick

My thoughts exactly.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
This is most definitely NOT a block. In your case, with the defenders both being knocked to the floor (not flopping), it's a PC foul every time. If the defenders had been left standing (or flopped), no call.

Easy rule of thumb on just about all fouls: A player has to actually DO something to get called for a foul. Standing still is not DOing something. They have to move some part of their body to cause contact.

Well said Camron.

MTD, Sr.

blindzebra · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dbyb
I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

Player control foul (if you call anything) as per case book play 10.6.2SitC. That's just about the exact play you are describing.

The case book play has contact while trying to split the defenders, the play described had contact AFTER the head and shoulders got past. Apples and oranges.

Jurassic Referee · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dbyb
I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

Player control foul (if you call anything) as per case book play 10.6.2SitC. That's just about the exact play you are describing.

The case book play has contact while trying to split the defenders, the play described had contact AFTER the head and shoulders got past. Apples and oranges.

That may be your opinion, but the NFHS certainly doesn't seem to agree with you. How do you know that the contact in the case book play didn't also occur after the dribbler got his head and shoulders through? Not that it makes any difference in the final call anyway.

blindzebra · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 04:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dbyb
I see this situation all the time in games and would like to know how other refs handle it. Offensive player A-1 is driving the lane with the ball. There are two defensive players side by side in the lane who have established a legal guarding position on the driving player. There is less than 3 feet between the two defensive players. A-1 drives between the two players and gets his head and shoulders past them but then there's contact with the lower body and all three players go sprawling. 4-7-2 (b) seems to indicate it's a block because A-1 had his head and shoulders past the defensive player(s). 4-7-2(c) seems to indicate that it should be PC becasue there was less than 3 feet of space therefore the dribbler has the greater responsibility. Thoughts?

Player control foul (if you call anything) as per case book play 10.6.2SitC. That's just about the exact play you are describing.

The case book play has contact while trying to split the defenders, the play described had contact AFTER the head and shoulders got past. Apples and oranges.

That may be your opinion, but the NFHS certainly doesn't seem to agree with you. How do you know that the contact in the case book play didn't also occur after the dribbler got his head and shoulders through? Not that it makes any difference in the final call anyway.

"Causes contact ATTEMPTING to dribble between them." That sure sounds like contact before getting a head and shoulder past either defender. Again apples and oranges.

Jurassic Referee · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 04:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

[/B]

That may be your opinion, but the NFHS certainly doesn't seem to agree with you. How do you know that the contact in the case book play didn't also occur after the dribbler got his head and shoulders through? Not that it makes any difference in the final call anyway.

[/B][/QUOTE]

"Causes contact ATTEMPTING to dribble between them." That sure sounds like contact before getting a head and shoulder past either defender. Again apples and oranges.

[/B][/QUOTE]Oh, is it a different call now if the dribbler does get his head and shoulders past 2 defenders who have LGP and are less than 3 feet apart before he causes the contact? My case book doesn't seem to say that is, but oh well......

What's your call in that case then? And don't forget to cite a rule that will support it.

blindzebra · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

That may be your opinion, but the NFHS certainly doesn't seem to agree with you. How do you know that the contact in the case book play didn't also occur after the dribbler got his head and shoulders through? Not that it makes any difference in the final call anyway.

[/B]

"Causes contact ATTEMPTING to dribble between them." That sure sounds like contact before getting a head and shoulder past either defender. Again apples and oranges.

[/B][/QUOTE]Oh, is it a different call now if the dribbler does get his head and shoulders past 2 defenders who have LGP and are less than 3 feet apart before he causes the contact? My case book doesn't seem to say that is, but oh well......

What's your call in that case then? And don't forget to cite a rule that will support it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rule book 10 art 2...If the dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for SUBSEQUENT contact is on THE OPPONENT.

Got you with your own rule support, so now what?

mick · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

"Causes contact ATTEMPTING to dribble between them." That sure sounds like contact before getting a head and shoulder past either defender. Again apples and oranges. [/B][/QUOTE]

blindzebra,
Nope.
Maybe Red Delicious and Golden Delicious, but nothing Naval.
mick

blindzebra · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

"Causes contact ATTEMPTING to dribble between them." That sure sounds like contact before getting a head and shoulder past either defender. Again apples and oranges.

blindzebra,
Nope.
Maybe Red Delicious and Golden Delicious, but nothing Naval.
mick [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, how about a nice tangerine then!

Jurassic Referee · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

That may be your opinion, but the NFHS certainly doesn't seem to agree with you. How do you know that the contact in the case book play didn't also occur after the dribbler got his head and shoulders through? Not that it makes any difference in the final call anyway.

"Causes contact ATTEMPTING to dribble between them." That sure sounds like contact before getting a head and shoulder past either defender. Again apples and oranges.

[/B]

Oh, is it a different call now if the dribbler does get his head and shoulders past 2 defenders who have LGP and are less than 3 feet apart before he causes the contact? My case book doesn't seem to say that is, but oh well......

What's your call in that case then? And don't forget to cite a rule that will support it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rule book 10 art 2...If the dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for SUBSEQUENT contact is on THE OPPONENT.

Got you with your own rule support, so now what?
[/B][/QUOTE]Gee, it seems to say "an opponent". Not between TWO opponents- but "AN" opponent. As in ONE opponent. Apples and oranges? NAH!!

Maybe I got a faulty casebook. Mine doesn't seem to have any written restrictions in the case book play that I cited. They musta left out the section that says "This case book play doesn't apply if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders by a defender". Maybe when I get an altered case book that says that, I might agree with you. Until then......

Waste of time arguing with you. Call it any way you want.