Self bat

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
This player, who was in control of the ball, went from A to B without properly dribbling. Since he was not holding the ball during transit, he cannot be penalized for travelling, thus illegal dribble is the correct offense.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And right there is where you're wrong. If he's not holding the ball and never dribbled, he can't be called for an illegal dribble either. Rule 4-15-4NOTE2 says that a player is NOT in control while batting a rebound/pass away from other players. There also is no limit set to the number of batts a player can make while the ball is still in the air.

Note that I was responding to Old School's contention that Chamberlain can't tip or bat the ball all the way down the floor without violating. And BktBallRef was also responding to Old School's similar wrong contention that you can't legally get from Point A to Point B without dribbling. If he batts the ball on a rebound, and the ball never comes to rest on his hand during any of the subsequent tips/batts, he sureashell legally can. And you also sureashell can't call an illegal dribble on that play if there never was any control.

And I was talking about the situation posted by the OP. He wrote that this action occurred "during a dribble," and we both know that part of the definition of a dribble is "ball movement caused by a player in control..." So my statement was completely correct.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The violation is an illegal dribble.

Again, the rule says:

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

What does provided mean? It means "if" or "on the condition". That says that the player may bat the ball into the air IF (on the condition) they permit it to strike the floor before they touch it. It doesn't qualify the type of touch. The condition covers catching, dribbling, batting, tapping, etc.....all forms of touching. If they don't permit it to strike the floor after batting it into the air, they have violated 4-15-2....which is part of the definition of a legal dribble. Hence, it is an illegal dribble.

So, if A1 is standing still, dribbling the ball and bats the ball up in the air and catches it, ending the dribble, it is a violation? 4.15.4 E (a) seems to indicate you can toss/bat the ball to yourself while not moving the pivot feet - therefore, touching the ball as you describe above would be legal if the pivot feet were not moved. Therefore, your logical argument has a flaw. 4-15-2 applies only when the ball strikes the floor after the second touch. If the ball never touches the floor again, 4-15-2 cannot be applied.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I believe even more firmly, however, that this is one of those that is in a somewhat gray area which slips through the cracks of the rules and is not definitively covered.

This is BS, you guys are reading more into the rules then we really need to. Remember the Intent and Purpose of the rule. It is not the rules intention to allow a player to pass the ball to himself. There is an allowance in the rules if in the referee opinion the player tried to shoot the ball, then he can legally go recover it. The OP threw the word BAT in there which I contend you can not bat and pass the ball at the same time. Either you passed the ball or you batted the ball. The referee should be able to easily make this judgment.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I also am reasonably sure that this is a play that I have never witnessed in 20+ years as an official and more years than that as a spectator.

What do you mean you never seen this. We see it every year in the slam dunk contest. Batting the ball happens all the time on rebounds. Batting the ball while in the middle of the dribble and no defender caused you to do it, will look so stupid that it'll be a very easy call to make, plus the player may get a quick hook to the bench for doing it.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Bottom line, if we have a play in this category, be quick and emphatic with the call, and try to avoid pausing and scratching your head between the whistle and the signal. And really hope that it doesn't happen twice and you and your partner make opposite calls.

Man, I am not scratching my head on nothing, that's going to be a violation each and everytime it occurs on my court. I'm not thinking twice about it either, no coach is going to argue this call. The only way you're get an argument from the coach is if you don't call it, that will be guaranteed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

So, if A1 is standing still, dribbling the ball and bats the ball up in the air and catches it, ending the dribble, it is a violation?

Yes...by 4-15-2...illegal dribble. A carry is also still a carry if the player's feet are stationary.

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

4.15.4 E (a) seems to indicate you can toss/bat the ball to yourself while not moving the pivot feet - therefore, touching the ball as you describe above would be legal if the pivot feet were not moved.

It does say that holding the ball, tossing it up, and catching it....all without moving the feet, is OK. It doesn't talk about actions that are during dribble. It even says that these actions are NOT part of a legal dribble.

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Therefore, your logical argument has a flaw. 4-15-2 applies only when the ball strikes the floor after the second touch. If the ball never touches the floor again, 4-15-2 cannot be applied.

That makes no sense at all. It says absolutely nothing about what happens after the 2nd touch. It might or might not touch the floor again. It has no relevance.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes...by 4-15-2...illegal dribble.

WHAT??? A player standing there dribbling bats the ball into the air and catches it without moving his feet and you will call an illegal dribble? For ending his dribble? I really don't get that...if he bats it into the air, catches it and then dribbles again, great...but no way do you all an illegal driblle for ENDING his dribble...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

This is BS.

The OP threw the word BAT in there which I contend you can not bat and pass the ball at the same time. Either you passed the ball or you batted the ball.

You're right. What you said is BS.

NFHS rule 4-31-- "A pass is movement of the of the ball caused by a player who throws, BATS or rolls the ball to another player."

The NCAA rule is basically the same.

Rule 4-15 defines a bat as intentionally striking the ball with the hand(s).

The NCAA rule is basically the same.

Ipw, you sureashell can pass the ball by batting it. Haven't you ever heard of a freaking tip pass?

I'm well aware of what you contend. Unfortunately, your contentions are completely wrong. Again. Always. Forever. And ever!

If you don't know or understand these very basic rules, howinthehell can you tell anybody what is a correct call or not?

Lah me, it just never ends......

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

WHAT??? A player standing there dribbling bats the ball into the air and catches it without moving his feet and you will call an illegal dribble? For ending his dribble? I really don't get that...if he bats it into the air, catches it and then dribbles again, great...but no way do you all an illegal driblle for ENDING his dribble...

I was with M&M and Camron until this question came up, and now I'm on the other side.

I think the highly referenced 4-15-2 could be worded this way to make more sense...."During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the dribbler can continue that dribble."

That said, to catch the ball after the bat is legal, but to touch the ball after the bat in an effort to continue the dribble, before it hits the floor is a violation.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I was with M&M and Camron until this question came up, and now I'm on the other side.

I think the highly referenced 4-15-2 could be worded this way to make more sense...."During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the dribbler can continue that dribble."

That said, to catch the ball after the bat is legal, but to touch the ball after the bat in an effort to continue the dribble, before it hits the floor is a violation.

Well, if that's what you want to accomplish, then the wording should be changed. However, the wording clearly says the ball cannot be touched after the first bat into the air, and before the ball is permitted to hit the ground. Touching certainly includes another bat, a catch, a tip, etc. In my opinion, the rule is there to prohibit multiple touches in between the ball hitting the floor during a dribble. In the OP, the catch is the second touch before the ball hits the floor.

So, the obvious, extreme example would be where A1 taps the ball over B1, runs around and taps the ball again over B2, gets to it and taps it over B3, all without the ball ever hitting the ground. Anyone see that as a legal play? Of course not, due to 4-15-2. You cannot say the taps ever ended the dribble, because it does not meet any of the criteria in 4-15-4. And, if the dribble never ended, you cannot call it a travelling violation, because you cannot travel during a dribble. So what made it an illegal dribble? The second touch before it was allowed to hit the ground.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Ipw, you sureashell can pass the ball by batting it. Haven't you ever heard of a freaking tip pass?

I understand you can bat the ball for a pass, that is not the issue.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you don't know or understand these very basic rules, howinthehell can you tell anybody what is a correct call or not?

If this is a very basic rule then how come we are not all in agreement here. I contend this is not a basic rule as far as the rulebook is concerned. However, it is bb-101 knowledge that you can't pass the ball to yourself. You learn that from playing the game which you obviously have never played before because if you did, you wouldn't be saying this is not a violation.

It is also my contention that people who played the game make the best referee's. They won't have any problems recognizing this play and the violation. Bottom line, officials that never played are the only ones that will argue that this play is legal and attempt to justify it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

WHAT??? A player standing there dribbling bats the ball into the air and catches it without moving his feet and you will call an illegal dribble? For ending his dribble? I really don't get that...if he bats it into the air, catches it and then dribbles again, great...but no way do you all an illegal driblle for ENDING his dribble...

Exactly.

An unrelated rule/case (traveling) says that a player holding the ball can toss the ball into the air and catch it as long as the pivot foot doesn't move. If the pivot foot does move, it is traveling. This rule has no relationship to what is or is not a legal dribble.

Rule 4-15-2 quite clearly says the dribbler can, during a dribble, bat it into the air but that if they do they may not touch it again until after it has bounced. There are no exceptions for the situation where the "touch" ends the dribble. The mere touch itself is the violation.

I'm really puzzled about why this is so hard to get. The grammar in 4-15-2 is not that complicated.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In my opinion, the rule is there to prohibit multiple touches in between the ball hitting the floor during a dribble. In the OP, the catch is the second touch before the ball hits the floor.

Yup, I agree with that.

Unfortunately, that hasn't got anything to do with ending a dribble. If the ball doesn't hit the floor, you don't have a "during the dribble". The dribble ended!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, I agree with that.

Unfortunately, that hasn't got anything to do with ending a dribble. If the ball doesn't hit the floor, you don't have a "during the dribble". The dribble ended!

So, are you saying the second touch of the ball ends the dribble?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

So, if A1 is standing still, dribbling the ball and bats the ball up in the air and catches it, ending the dribble, it is a violation?

Nope.

4-15-2 applies only when the ball strikes the floor after the second touch. If the ball never touches the floor again, 4-15-2 cannot be applied.

Yup.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I understand you can bat the ball for a pass, that is not the issue.

Oh bullpucky, you understand that! And higher and deeper bullpucky that it isn't an issue.

Here's three of your posts in this thread:
1) "Somebody needs to define the word bat in the federation code. To me Bat does NOT mean pass."
2) "The OP threw the word BAT in there which I contend you can NOT bat and pass the ball at the same time."
3) "I contend that you can NOT bat and pass the ball at the same time. Either you passed the ball or batted the ball."

The issue is that you're now trying to say that you understand something when you've already posted at least three times showing that you don't have a clue what we were talking about. You've been quite insistent that a "bat" and a "pass" are completely different things. You also thought that a "bat" wasn't defined in the rules when it sureashell is. The only reason that you might understand now is because I cited the damn rules to you. I told you way back that you were completely wrong, and that you should look up the proper rules. Well, you wouldn't, or more likely couldn't, do that-- so you've been posting your completely wrong bullpucky ever since.

If you don't own a rule book or understand basic rules, don't pretend.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, are you saying the second touch of the ball ends the dribble?

No, and I never have said that. Grabbing the ball ends the dribble. The second touch might be a violation if the dribble continues.

If the dribble ends, it's simply impossible for the second touch to happen during the dribble.

Apples and krill.