Partner Problem

[rainmaker]

First free throw of two. I'm trail. Shot goes up, shooter leans... way... over... but doesn't actually step until the ball is pretty much in the net. Partner (on lead, remember) blows whistle, waves off the basket, and starts to give the ball to the other team. I tweet, we huddle, we disagree, but I'm the Referee, he's the umpire, so I go to the table and say, (both coaches hear me) "The basket is good, he didn't step over until the ball was in." The defending coach says, "You can't overrule him!!" I say, "Coach, I didn't overrule him. We disagreed about the call, I'm the Head Ref, and I have to decide." He didn't like it but he sat down and didn't complain any more.

Did I handle this correctly?

[eroe39]

Rainmaker, if you decide to overrule this call made by your partner it would be best to let him go to the table and explain what happened. Now, it is more believable to the coach the call goes against. He believes that this was not one official taking over but that a team decision was made and even the calling official was convinced of a wrong call. This is similar to when a ball goes out of bounds and your partner gets it wrong. The proper procedure is to go to him and tell him the info you have and let him signal the change. A poor partner would blow his whistle and just point the other way and thus embarrass his partner and make it look like one official is dominating the other. Now, on your play if the official is a rookie and maybe does not feel comfortable going to the table then I agree you should go to the table. However, give him that option, because overrule situations always look better if the official who is overruled actually comes out with the change. It is more believable to the players and coaches as well.

[crew]

i agree, approach only if your 100% give your info and allow him to make a change. if he is still unsure say, "i will take full responsibility for the play." this will keep the perception of credibility within the crew. if he doesnt change his call after that let him live and die with it. above all be a good partner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
First free throw of two. I'm trail. Shot goes up, shooter leans... way... over... but doesn't actually step until the ball is pretty much in the net. Partner (on lead, remember) blows whistle, waves off the basket, and starts to give the ball to the other team. I tweet, we huddle, we disagree, but I'm the Referee, he's the umpire, so I go to the table and say, (both coaches hear me) "The basket is good, he didn't step over until the ball was in." The defending coach says, "You can't overrule him!!" I say, "Coach, I didn't overrule him. We disagreed about the call, I'm the Head Ref, and I have to decide." He didn't like it but he sat down and didn't complain any more.

Did I handle this correctly?

WOW!Rainmaker,unfortunately you cannot overrule your partner in this case.That's rule 2-6 and it doesn't matter if you are the referee or not.If he insists it's a violation,you gotta go along with it.It's not a correctable error,either.It's absolutely unbelievable that this clown made the call from "lead" though.That's your call,your judgement.There are 2 things that you should do,though,after the game.They are(1)report him to your association(2)neuter him.The order you want to do this in is your choice.Hopefully,your association or assignor will have a good long talk with this guy and straighten him out.Maybe he'll listen to somebody and not pull anything like that again.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Rainmaker,unfortunately you cannot overrule your partner in this case.
[snip] It's absolutely unbelievable that this clown made the call from "lead" though.That's your call,your judgement.

So JR, if (1) this is a call in which one official cannot "overrule" the other, and (2) it's Juulie's call as Trail, then shouldn't we say that Juulie made the call (no violation) and the Lead should not be allowed to overrule it? So go to the table and say the original call (no violation) stands!

Then neuter your partner.

(I was going to say "then puke on his shoes", but that only applies on the other board. )

Chuck

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Rainmaker,unfortunately you cannot overrule your partner in this case.That's rule 2-6 and it doesn't matter if you are the referee or not.If he insists it's a violation,you gotta go along with it.It's not a correctable error,either.

I'm with you JR.
Let the partner live or die on that call... all alone.
And try like heck not to lower and shake your head, or make any other display of disapproval.

[PublicBJ]

Originally posted by rainmaker
*snip* ...we disagree, but I'm the Referee, he's the umpire, so I go to the table and say, (both coaches hear me) "The basket is good, he didn't step over until the ball was in." The defending coach says, "You can't overrule him!!" I say, "Coach, I didn't overrule him. We disagreed about the call, I'm the Head Ref, and I have to decide."

This is not a trick I would try on a regular basis. Pulling a "head ref" statement will not make you many referee friends.

I agree with the earlier statement made that I would either: a) get with my partner and encourage him to change his call himself; or b) let him hang from his own stupid call, and chew him out for it in private later.

[BktBallRef]

I would have handled it one of two ways.

Go to your partner and quietly say, "That's not your call. It's my call and he didn't violate. Now, do you want to go to the table and change it?"

OR

As mick said, let him die with.

Chances are he'll never do it again either way.

But you can't change it, even if you are the R.

[rainmaker]

Doggone it!! I admit I reacted out of annoyance and it got me into trouble. I wouldn't have done it, though, if he hadn't been gonna give up the second shot as well! I actually huddled for that reason, and he wouldn't back down about his interpretation of the rule that if the shooter violates on the first shot, he loses the second one. I was sure this applies only to the one-and-one, and not two a two-shot situation. I got annoyed and just walked over to the table, and pulled this nasty little stunt. RATS!!


Okay, so here was another problem, same game, where I had to make a Referee decision, and later I thought I blew it, but now I'm not sure. End of third quarter, seven seconds left, clock is stopped. A1 inbounds under B's basket, B presses, but A gets the ball downcourt no problem, but the defense is intense, finally the shot goes up, and in, but when Coach B (and everyone else) looks up, still seven seconds on the clock!! I had no problem with ruling that the quarter was over, but did the shot count? I reasoned that I had counted five in the back court and at least three twice in front court, so shot must have been late, and I ruled, no shot. But looking at the rule book, I'm not sure that was the correct call.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Doggone it!! I admit I reacted out of annoyance and it got me into trouble. I wouldn't have done it, though, if he hadn't been gonna give up the second shot as well! I actually huddled for that reason, and he wouldn't back down about his interpretation of the rule that if the shooter violates on the first shot, he loses the second one. I was sure this applies only to the one-and-one, and not two a two-shot situation. I got annoyed and just walked over to the table, and pulled this nasty little stunt. RATS!!

There's absolutely no problem with awarding the 2nd shot. You are the referee and this would be a misapplication of the rules, not a judgment call.

Okay, so here was another problem, same game, where I had to make a Referee decision, and later I thought I blew it, but now I'm not sure. End of third quarter, seven seconds left, clock is stopped. A1 inbounds under B's basket, B presses, but A gets the ball downcourt no problem, but the defense is intense, finally the shot goes up, and in, but when Coach B (and everyone else) looks up, still seven seconds on the clock!! I had no problem with ruling that the quarter was over, but did the shot count? I reasoned that I had counted five in the back court and at least three twice in front court, so shot must have been late, and I ruled, no shot. But looking at the rule book, I'm not sure that was the correct call.

That's the R's call. I'm not sure that I would have done anything any differently, except pay more attention to the clock. But you need definite knowledge to rule that time should have expired. Perhaps the proper thing to do is to take 5 seconds off the clock, and give A the ball at the division line.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


There's absolutely no problem with awarding the 2nd shot. You are the referee and this would be a misapplication of the rules, not a judgment call.

Okay, so I could have stepped into the lane, and said, "He gets his second shot" and then if HE wanted to argue the rule, let HIM huddle. What if he keeps insisting but I know he's wrong? When, and how, do I put my R foot down?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Okay, so I could have stepped into the lane, and said, "He gets his second shot" and then if HE wanted to argue the rule, let HIM huddle. What if he keeps insisting but I know he's wrong? When, and how, do I put my R foot down?

Well, it's best to huddle regardless and get the crew on the same page, ie don't just step in & force it.
If you know you are right then you have to find a way to
convince your partner, whether you are R or not. Either
get him to agree you're right or get him to agree to trust
you. If he continues to argue then of course the R decides.
If the R changes the call/decision based on a rules
misapplication then he goes to the table & coaches to
explain.

[Mark Dexter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

So JR, if (1) this is a call in which one official cannot "overrule" the other, and (2) it's Juulie's call as Trail, then shouldn't we say that Juulie made the call (no violation) and the Lead should not be allowed to overrule it? So go to the table and say the original call (no violation) stands!

Then neuter your partner.

(I was going to say "then puke on his shoes", but that only applies on the other board. )

Chuck

Here wouldn't you point at his pants?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Chuck,if I thought I could get away with,I might be awful tempted to tell everybody the original call stands,just like you suggested.Ain't nobody there,including my partner,knows what the rule actually is.The problem is that my partner has already made me look like an idiot.There's no upside in making him look like one,too.Probably have to suck it up and take one for the crew.

Here wouldn't you point at his pants? [/B]

Mark,after I read that this goober wanted to cancel the 2nd FT too,I think we should neuter him,puke on his shoes,and then point at his pants.Hey,that might make a helluva commercial for Leather Luster.We could call it the "Chuck & Mark" test-"Folks,watch how Leather Luster retains its' brilliant shine after this gastric acid test.Do not try this at home,only at basketball games!".Chuck can puke on his shoes,and Mark can point at 'em.
Btw,do you think that Juulie is going to pre-game officials responsibilities on FT's from now on?I'd kinda bet on it.

[mick]

Do you think your partner was overly testosteroned and that is why he over-reached?
If you were not a women, would he have been such a prickly pear?
Do you notice other male partners trying to be the Big Dog because they are more masculine than you?

This isn't a loaded question. Take it, or not, at face value.

Just curious.
If you wanna pass on this, that's fine too.
mick