Walton / Nantz's point - 6 fouls

[MadCityRef]

Ref Magazine did a story last year on 2 vs. 3-man in NFHS games (Iowa vs. Illinois). Average was 1 more foul called in the 3-man game.

I see a P.O.E. next year about flopping. Saw a ton of it this year in NCAA games. It doesn't seem to work yet it's taught everywhere. Letting out a yell or moan when hit is an automatic no-call, although sometimes the kids get run over anyway. Need to find a balance.

[Terrapins Fan]

When I was coaching I expected my players to commit fouls. I told them if they didn't have 3 or 4 fouls at the end of the game, they weren't playing hard enough.

Giving the players a 6th foul would be the wrong direction for players, for sure.

[eastcoastref]

There is no need to go to six fouls. However, some officials -- at all levels from high school through major Division I -- need to learn to keep the stars in the game. In both the men's and women's Final Fours, there have been too many players in foul trouble, oftentimes getting hit with ticky tack fouls. If light to moderate contact does not create an advantage or disadvantage -- like the ridiculous holding foul on Georgetown's Hibbert when Ohio State was clearly going to get the rebound anyway -- then the officials really should pass on blowing the whistle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eastcoastref

However, some officials -- at all levels from high school through major Division I -- need to learn to keep the stars in the game.

Are you serious?

Are you an official?

That's the kind of statement that comes from fans, not officials. If you are an official, you need to learn that "keeping the stars in the game" goes against our training.

That's complete doodoo!

[Dealone]

Quote AuLEAD:" The Big East Conference said today it would seek permission from the National Collegiate Athletic Association to permit players to accumulate six fouls, rather than five, before being forced out of a game.

The Big East Conference said today it would seek permission from the National Collegiate Athletic Association to permit players to accumulate six fouls, rather than five, before being forced out of a game.

The six-foul rule was approved by a vote of the league's coaches, a spokeswoman, Chris Plonsky, said.

The coaches rejected a proposed rule change that would have allowed players fouled in the act of shooting a 3-point basket to shoot three free throws instead of two, Plonsky said.

The Boston College coach, Jim O'Brien, who voted against the changes, said, ''The lesser teams work hard trying to get the other team's big men out of the game and now this just increases the better team's chances.''

The N.C.A.A. this year said it would give individual conferences the option of adopting the rules changes. Permission to use the rule is ''usually a formality,'' Plonsky said.

If approved, the six-foul rule would apply to conference games and the Big East tournament. It could be used in nonconference games involving a Big East team with the approval of both coaches. The rule would not be used in the N.C.A.A. tournament. "

Interesting decision in this Aug 10,1989 News Quote (especially the denial of three shot foul) which reflects the big east urban inside muscle game bias that existed more in the past than present. I was glad to hear John Wooden quoted this weekend that the most important change NCAA should stem increased contact/aggression (unfortunately Wooden is swimming uphill on this one cause the muscle game is good for tv). I am not a ref but have been lurking on your site and have learned tons. Following this subject line, I thought the 'style' of calls in second half GTown v. UNC hurt Carolina. Sorry for throwing too much into this first post.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dealone

I was glad to hear John Wooden quoted this weekend that the most important change NCAA should stem increased contact/aggression (unfortunately Wooden is swimming uphill on this one cause the muscle game is good for tv).

The fact is that the NCAA is in complete agreement with Wooden. POE's over the last 10 years have always included comments about rough play. The NCAA rule-makers want "the muscle game" to be kept under control. It's up to the officials to make the calls on a consistent basis over the course of the entire season.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The fact is that the NCAA is in complete agreement with Wooden. POE's over the last 10 years have always included comments about rough play. The NCAA rule-makers want "the muscle game" to be kept under control. It's up to the officials to make the calls on a consistent basis over the course of the entire season.

Was there anything in those NCAA POE's saying that they don't apply to the stars?

[bellnier]

Back to the original post...I'm all for adding one extra allowed foul, but only in overtime, and only with the the fouled team retaining possession.

[eastcoastref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious?

Are you an official?

That's the kind of statement that comes from fans, not officials. If you are an official, you need to learn that "keeping the stars in the game" goes against our training.

That's complete doodoo!

Really? Then why is it that every longtime, experienced official who has mentored me -- all the way up to guys who have officiated NCAA Tournament games -- have told me that this is good practice?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eastcoastref

Really? Then why is it that every longtime, experienced official who has mentored me -- all the way up to guys who have officiated NCAA Tournament games -- have told me that this is good practice?

It's a good practice to favor one ballplayer over another? It's a good practice to have a two-tiered officiating system? It's a good practice to have one set of rules for the stars and a completely different set of rules for the riffraff?

Every longtime, experienced official who has mentored you, and that includes anybody that supposedly has officiated NCAA tournament games also, is completely full of doodoo too then. That's absolutely freaking ridiculous.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by eastcoastref

some officials -- at all levels from high school through major Division I -- need to learn to keep the stars in the game.

What are you suggesting, exactly? What are you prepared to do to "keep the stars in the game"?

Nobody can keep stars in the game if the stars want to beat the crap out of each other. You can't ignore fouls or rough play. You can't ignore obvious contact that gives an advantage.

If there are two players in the vicinity of the foul AND you could call the foul on either one of them AND you know that one of them has 3 fouls, then I can see giving it to the other one.

But I'm not ignoring an obvious foul by the big guy just because he has 3 fouls.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

What are you suggesting, exactly? What are you prepared to do to "keep the stars in the game"?

Nobody can keep stars in the game if the stars want to beat the crap out of each other. You can't ignore fouls or rough play. You can't ignore obvious contact that gives an advantage.

If there are two players in the vicinity of the foul AND you could call the foul on either one of them AND you know that one of them has 3 fouls, then I can see giving it to the other one.

But I'm not ignoring an obvious foul by the big guy just because he has 3 fouls.

Exactly.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

I see a P.O.E. next year about flopping. Saw a ton of it this year in NCAA games. It doesn't seem to work yet it's taught everywhere. Letting out a yell or moan when hit is an automatic no-call, although sometimes the kids get run over anyway. Need to find a balance.

I don't need a POE for this. I'm not having that in my games. That will be an automatic defensive foul when you start that mess. If I'm looking at a no-call, and you yell or moan and hit the deck, automatic defensive foul. That will put an end to that. If you let it go on, things tend to get worse.

I think college could go to 6 fouls because at this level we are marketing the players. More playing time might be the different in a contract to the pro's. We certainly don't want a talent like Oden having to sit the entire 1st half because of two quick fouls. Also, the game is called a little bit tighter in the NCAA then in the NBA, and when you get into the tournament, it's one and done. I think 6 fouls for college is a good idea.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't need a POE for this. I'm not having that in my games. That will be an automatic defensive foul when you start that mess. If I'm looking at a no-call, and you yell or moan and hit the deck, automatic defensive foul. That will put an end to that. If you let it go on, things tend to get worse.

Exactly what defensive call are you going to make?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly what defensive call are you going to make?

Pass interference. Offsides. Encroachment.