Walton / Nantz's point - 6 fouls

[bellnier]

Back to the original post...I'm all for adding one extra allowed foul, but only in overtime, and only with the the fouled team retaining possession.

[eastcoastref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious?

Are you an official?

That's the kind of statement that comes from fans, not officials. If you are an official, you need to learn that "keeping the stars in the game" goes against our training.

That's complete doodoo!

Really? Then why is it that every longtime, experienced official who has mentored me -- all the way up to guys who have officiated NCAA Tournament games -- have told me that this is good practice?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dealone

I was glad to hear John Wooden quoted this weekend that the most important change NCAA should stem increased contact/aggression (unfortunately Wooden is swimming uphill on this one cause the muscle game is good for tv).

The fact is that the NCAA is in complete agreement with Wooden. POE's over the last 10 years have always included comments about rough play. The NCAA rule-makers want "the muscle game" to be kept under control. It's up to the officials to make the calls on a consistent basis over the course of the entire season.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eastcoastref

Really? Then why is it that every longtime, experienced official who has mentored me -- all the way up to guys who have officiated NCAA Tournament games -- have told me that this is good practice?

It's a good practice to favor one ballplayer over another? It's a good practice to have a two-tiered officiating system? It's a good practice to have one set of rules for the stars and a completely different set of rules for the riffraff?

Every longtime, experienced official who has mentored you, and that includes anybody that supposedly has officiated NCAA tournament games also, is completely full of doodoo too then. That's absolutely freaking ridiculous.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The fact is that the NCAA is in complete agreement with Wooden. POE's over the last 10 years have always included comments about rough play. The NCAA rule-makers want "the muscle game" to be kept under control. It's up to the officials to make the calls on a consistent basis over the course of the entire season.

Was there anything in those NCAA POE's saying that they don't apply to the stars?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by eastcoastref

some officials -- at all levels from high school through major Division I -- need to learn to keep the stars in the game.

What are you suggesting, exactly? What are you prepared to do to "keep the stars in the game"?

Nobody can keep stars in the game if the stars want to beat the crap out of each other. You can't ignore fouls or rough play. You can't ignore obvious contact that gives an advantage.

If there are two players in the vicinity of the foul AND you could call the foul on either one of them AND you know that one of them has 3 fouls, then I can see giving it to the other one.

But I'm not ignoring an obvious foul by the big guy just because he has 3 fouls.

[Junker]

I agree that you don't favor one player over another, but it is a good practice to know who the best player is on the floor and be aware when they are in foul trouble. As far as moving to 6 fouls, that's crap. 5 is just right.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that you don't favor one player over another, but it is a good practice to know who the best player is on the floor and be aware when they are in foul trouble.

Could you explain that in a little more detail?

If you don't favor them, then what do you do differently for them?

[Junker]

You are right, in a way it is definitely favoring a player and early in my career I was totally against it. As I've moved on to better games, I understand that you need to be aware of the better players and if they have 4, the 5th foul better be, without a doubt, a 5th foul. Of course, all 5 fouls on everyone should be, without a doubt, a foul.

[stmaryrams]

Originally Posted by Junker

You are right, in a way it is definitely favoring a player and early in my career I was totally against it. As I've moved on to better games, I understand that you need to be aware of the better players and if they have 4, the 5th foul better be, without a doubt, a 5th foul. Of course, all 5 fouls on everyone should be, without a doubt, a foul.

If you are consistent with your calls then it shouldn't matter. If you called a foul on a hand check on their "best player' in the first quarter then the "best player" better adjust or expect to get called for the same thing in the 4th quarter when they have 4 fouls.

[TriggerMN]

Originally Posted by LDUB

NBA - 48 Minute game, 6 fouls. I foul per 8 minutes of play.

NCAA - 40 minutes, 5 fouls. I foul per 8 minutes of play.

NFHS - 32 Minutes, 5 fouls. I foul per 6:24 of play.

If the Federation wants to cut back on rough play they could drop the fouls to 4 wich would allign themsleves with the other levels of play with 1 foul allowed per 8 minutes of the game.

Ahh, 8 minute quarters...the good ol' days...

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by stmaryrams

If you are consistent with your calls then it shouldn't matter. If you called a foul on a hand check on their "best player' in the first quarter then the "best player" better adjust or expect to get called for the same thing in the 4th quarter when they have 4 fouls.

My reality is that I'm not calling a hand check on Maya Moore, 60 feet from the basket for a handcheck in the 4th quarter for her 5th foul. Yes it's a foul, but the crowd didn't pay their $5 or $10 dollars to see me, they came to see the players, and IMHO to put the star of game on the bench for a handcheck in the 4th game that may decide the outcome of the game just doesn't sit well with me and it probably won't sit well with my assignor as well.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

I see a P.O.E. next year about flopping. Saw a ton of it this year in NCAA games. It doesn't seem to work yet it's taught everywhere. Letting out a yell or moan when hit is an automatic no-call, although sometimes the kids get run over anyway. Need to find a balance.

I don't need a POE for this. I'm not having that in my games. That will be an automatic defensive foul when you start that mess. If I'm looking at a no-call, and you yell or moan and hit the deck, automatic defensive foul. That will put an end to that. If you let it go on, things tend to get worse.

I think college could go to 6 fouls because at this level we are marketing the players. More playing time might be the different in a contract to the pro's. We certainly don't want a talent like Oden having to sit the entire 1st half because of two quick fouls. Also, the game is called a little bit tighter in the NCAA then in the NBA, and when you get into the tournament, it's one and done. I think 6 fouls for college is a good idea.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't need a POE for this. I'm not having that in my games. That will be an automatic defensive foul when you start that mess. If I'm looking at a no-call, and you yell or moan and hit the deck, automatic defensive foul. That will put an end to that. If you let it go on, things tend to get worse.

Exactly what defensive call are you going to make?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly what defensive call are you going to make?

Pass interference. Offsides. Encroachment.