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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 29, 2007, 02:05pm
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I try to glance at the clock around 3 to 5 seconds and then listen for the horn. Like Rut, though, I'm not looking away from the play to watch the clock. If the horn isn't working, you'll know after the first quarter and can adjust from there. Usually, this amounts to nothing more than setting the horn to automatic.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 29, 2007, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The horn is what ends the game, not the clock saying 0:00.

Also I do not know how you can watch the clock and the play at the same time. You are going to miss something. What do you do when the clock is overhead and the clock is not in your field of vision? I cannot speak for you, but I cannot watch both.

Peace
Yes - I agree that the horn ends the game. But what if the officials know that the horn is going to have a split second delay and in order to ensure that the shot is released in time, one of the officials must keep an eye on both clock and shooter. Given we have definite knowledge that the clock will delay, we need to modify our officiating to suit the scenario. That's why we have that new rule - lag time elmiated (5-10-1). ALthough this is related more to adding time back to the clock, but "when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock. I beleive if we have knowledge that the time is expired, we have the power to wave off the last second shot attempt too.

It is also true that while watching the shooter, it is difficult to monitor the game clock. But we need to try our best and call what the game fairly. In terms of "missing something", the 2-person game stinks as the game can never be called perfectly. Think of a fast break scenario. The new Trail hustles down the court and often run past 2 or 4 players to trail the play. What if those 4 players started fighting? Mechanically, we are supposed to "box-in the players" but since the "T" has to hustle down the court and officiate that play, we are opening up the opp. for the players to assult each other. What i'm getting across is the 2 person game is more difficult to officiate. But we will need to try our best to officiate the game even if it requires us to call and/or see the game differently to get the play right.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 29, 2007, 02:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The clocks are almost never positioned in a "perfect place." Once again, I think it is really stupid to be watching the clock when the play is what is important. I would rather not see the clock, and then miss a play trying to watch something that is not in my peripheral vision. If it works for you more power to you. But if you are working with me, I am not going to be watching the clock on the last second shot. What you should do in my opinion, is take a responsibility for the horn and the clock as a non-calling official and give help when needed. There is no need for this call to made instantaneously when there is 2 or 3 of you that might have information to get the call right.

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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 29, 2007, 02:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
What I was agreeing to is the fact that the C is the "calling official" for the last second shot. Many HS officials that I have worked with are adamant to allow this to happen in HS games. Since NF Mechanics say the "opposite table official" are to call the last second shot, I see many officials just move regardless of where the ball is at to make the C the person who is opposite the table. I was not saying that this complete procedure was what the CCA Women's mechanics do. Just making a comparison as to why officials do this. This is in no way a CCA Men's Mechanic and in no way is the NF Official's Manual mechanics. This is a hybrid drawn up by many officials that use work mostly CCA games. Also to be fair there are some that do not work Women's NCAA Basketball that advocates this procedure. I personally find it a silly mechanic and unnecessary, but that is because contact or a violation or foul is much more likely than having to rule on a last second shot. I only had one or two times this past year where I even had to think about ruling on a last second shot, but many plays where contact or a violation took place near the end of the game.



I was originally responding to something Bob J said. I was only referring to the aspect of the C always having the last second shot. I was not getting into all the parts of the conversation that were had before. That probably is where the confusion came in. I am not blameless in the confusion.

Peace
So basically what you are saying is that we were both saying the same thing all along...I can live with that.

And no, M&M - don't know nothing about no stinking cruises...
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 29, 2007, 02:40pm
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To Rocky,

I do not think we are disagreeing as much as it appeared. I think I did not make my disagreement as clear and that is the confusion. I was making a different point than you were apparently.

Peace
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 29, 2007, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
Yes - I agree that the horn ends the game. But what if the officials know that the horn is going to have a split second delay and in order to ensure that the shot is released in time, one of the officials must keep an eye on both clock and shooter. Given we have definite knowledge that the clock will delay, we need to modify our officiating to suit the scenario. That's why we have that new rule - lag time elmiated (5-10-1). ALthough this is related more to adding time back to the clock, but "when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock. I beleive if we have knowledge that the time is expired, we have the power to wave off the last second shot attempt too.
The horn does not have to be simultaneous with the clock. It has become more and more the case with clocks with tenths of a second on them, but even then there are situations where that are still not the case. The speed of light and sound also travels at different velocities which could affect your decision if you rely some much on what the clock says. Depending on the gym you are in, it is very possible that there is going to be a delay in one from the other. If the NF and NCAA want to change the rule, I might go along with you. But the horn ends the game, not what the clock reads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
It is also true that while watching the shooter, it is difficult to monitor the game clock. But we need to try our best and call what the game fairly. In terms of "missing something", the 2-person game stinks as the game can never be called perfectly. Think of a fast break scenario. The new Trail hustles down the court and often run past 2 or 4 players to trail the play. What if those 4 players started fighting? Mechanically, we are supposed to "box-in the players" but since the "T" has to hustle down the court and officiate that play, we are opening up the opp. for the players to assult each other. What i'm getting across is the 2 person game is more difficult to officiate. But we will need to try our best to officiate the game even if it requires us to call and/or see the game differently to get the play right.
My priority is the play and the players, not the clock. So you can say we can watch the clock and the player, but I have yet to find that easy. The only time it is easier to do both on some levels is if you are working in a college gym where the time is on the shot clock. If the clock is located on the wall, when the ball goes to certain spots on the floor, then the clock is completely out of your vision. Not sure how you can watch a shooter with your back to the clock at the same time? I know I do not have eyes in the back of my head. And this is even harder in 3 Person where you do not have the liberties to move as you would in 2 Person. So you can say "try our best" all you like, but it is sometimes impossible to watch both. Trying to convince people they can is in my opinion irresponsible. Secondly, what you are talking about requires the perfect floor configuration. If you have a completely different floor configuration, then this makes it even more impossible to accomplish.

As I said earlier, if I was working with you, I would make it clear I am not doing this. I would be watching the players and not the clock. I remember a game where an official wanted me to watch the clock while I was on table side and take the last second shot. The ball moved to the corner and I had to turn my head away from the clock and other than what I was counting in my head, I had no idea what the clock was saying. There is a reason officials have to go to the monitor to change clock issues in NCAA games. If they could watch both, then there would be no reason for looking at the monitor. You can do this all you want, you are not going to convince me to change my opinion.

Peace
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2007, 07:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
Try servicing schools that the horn goes off about a second or two after it hits 0:00. Then I think it is essential to look at the clock
If it's one second, then the clock is working properly.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2007, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
If it's one second, then the clock is working properly.
That is, if tenths of a second are not displayed...
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2007, 10:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
That is, if tenths of a second are not displayed...
Correct -- and since the poster indicated "0:00" that would indicate that seconds only (not tenths) are displayed.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2007, 11:49am
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I have only run across this one time but at Ursuline College in Cleveland Ohio this season I saw that their Game clock had Hundreths on it.
First glance scared the hell out of me
it read 0:86.

I thought I was at a track meet
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2007, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
Maybe all this confusion is a great reason to dump women's mechanics and use the men's?
Or the other way around.
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