TV commentators and the great georgeton travel incident...

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by socalreff

At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?

Wow. I am pushing 6', 173. The other two officials I know of from my association that are on here are about 6'1", 180, and 5'9, 130.

(Although I must say that I'll probably be heading down that way for at least two camps this summer.)

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

officials are obviously not interested in doing their job and i am forced to assist them.

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

its good to see officials that care about their craft and i wish that more officials in the association in my area cared as you guys do.

Ouch.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

but since 90% of the refs in our area would call it travel,

Very ouch.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.

What side of the bay, I wonder...

Incidentally, coach, if you're in my part of the bay, I personally know of 2 other officials from the association I'm in who are on this basketball forum. Plus me makes 3. I dare say you'd be hard pressed to find too many associations with many more than that on this site on a regular basis.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

Wow. Jurassic, you need a new handle. Like, T-rex. Or T-ref. Or the shredder. I love the way you roll!

Gee, ya think that maybe I should have said something like "I respectfully beg to differ" instead?

When someone who claims to be a coach comes on here and states that the vast majority of the officials that he gets are basically totally incompetent, and then one of our so-called officiating brothers completely and publicly agrees with him, well, imo that is going just way too far.

Thankfully, the vast majority of coaches and officials aren't like those two.

[Y2Koach]

I know this being my first post, my introduction of myself might come off as a little brash. I understand about first impressions and I am really not here just to cause a ruckus, however it may have appeared initially.

Here is a situation where I actually pulled out a rulebook. Tell me how out of line I am.

My team is down 15 - 20 points throughout the game, we are playing horribly and are lucky to only be down this much. We start to make some shots and play a little defense, so we make a 4th quarter run and with about 1:48 or so left, we cut the lead to 5. By the way, the officials have done a pretty decent job and I am definitely not the type to be screaming at officials throughout the game. Anyways, down 5 with 1:48 left, opposing team is on the line for a 1 and 1. As we have been doing all game (and all season long), we have our 4 players along the lane and our 5th player is lined up above the freethrow line extended outside the 3pt arc, opposite his teammate who is supposed to boxout the freethrower. Before the baseline ref gives the shooter the ball, the ref along the sideline tells my player he must line up "above the top of the key". I tell my player we really need this looseball, line up where youre supposed to be. The ref then puts his arm out to move my player back and tells him to line up above the top of the key. Again, i tell my guy to line up where he is supposed to be, we need this rebound. As the baseline ref tosses the ball to the shooter, the sideline ref moves my player about 5 feet behind the top of the key and walks over to me to tell me "listen coach, you really need to know the rules before you cost your team a point if he misses". Up until this point, i have not said anything to the ref at all.

The shooter shoots the FT and as luck would have it, the rebound lands exactly where my player is supposed to be. The ball actually bounces on the floor before the opposing player picks up the ball and they score a layup.

We take the ball and drive to the hoop and get fouled. While the players are setting up to shoot the FTs, the ref again comes towards my bench and tells me "yeah, you really need to know the rules". I tell the ref "I read the rulebook cover to cover once a week". One of my players comes to the bench area to ask what defense we should go into and when we should foul. He is in front of the bench area, above the freethrow line extended but below the top of the key extended. The reft tells him he needs to move or he will cost his teammate a point, and that "your coach really needs to know the rules."

He has now told me I need to know the rule 3 times. A rule that he is wrong about, that cost my team a valuable possession at a strategic part of the game. A rule that will come into play again since we are losing and time is winding down so we will need to foul to stop the clock and hope they miss freethrows. So we foul again and the opposition is at the line for its last 1 and 1 before double bonus. Again, the same ref tells my player to move back and while doing so looks in my direction and starts laughing and shaking his head.... what would you do?

Now strategically, down by 5 with 1:40something on the clock and the ball, if we score, we do not have to foul purposely if we can score on our possession, maybe down 3 with 1:20 or so left. Instead we were down 6 with 1:03 left and have to foul. If they make 2 FTs or get another long rebound that my player should have been permitted position to retrieve, its highly improbable we can come back without any major luck.

So while the opposition is bouncing the ball, preparing to shoot his FT, I pull out my rulebook. Rule 8 Art 5 was pretty easy to find since its pretty close to the exact middle of the booklet. I read the rule to the ref: ANY PLAYER, OTHER THAN THE FREE THROWER, WHO DOES NOT OCCUPY A MARKED LANE SPACE MUST BE BEHIND THE FREE-THROW LINE EXTENDED AND BEHIND THE THREE-POINT LINE.

By the way, we end up losing that game by 8 or 9 but we did not play well enough to deserve to win the game even though the guys showed a little heart by fighting its way back.

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Here is a situation where I actually pulled out a rulebook. Tell me how out of line I am.

...Before the baseline ref gives the shooter the ball, the ref along the sideline tells my player he must line up "above the top of the key". I tell my player we really need this looseball, line up where youre supposed to be. The ref then puts his arm out to move my player back and tells him to line up above the top of the key. Again, i tell my guy to line up where he is supposed to be, we need this rebound.

It's nice that you have a rulebook and are serious about studying it. The fact is that the rules knowledge which you have to accept during the game is the knowledge the officiating crew possesses. In the scenario I have quoted, you really have to accept what the game administration is saying at that time - if you wish to call a timeout and discuss it and the official puts up with that, then do that, but don't defiantly put your player back into a position he is being told to vacate - with four players lined up, you're going to lose the rebound because of failure to position the 5th player in that spot??

What level of HS ball is this? I think you're focusing on the officials and teaching your players disrespect of the game administration - instead, try teaching them to focus on playing the game within the context of whatever the officials dictate. No one is perfect and we all learn as we advance ; trotting around with a rulebook and teaching defiance to your players is not impressive. No wonder you lost the game - you kept your players too distracted from what was important on the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

I recommend that you stick your rule book up your azz.

After the way that you have already denigrated and demeaned all basketball officials, that is the only answer that you deserve to get.

Why are you asking us anyway? You've already informed us that being such a renowned, self-acclaimed rules junky, you already know more than 90% of the officials. If you're that smart, answer your own damn questions. Look 'em up in your rule book. You sureashell don't need us.

Lah me.......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

I think you're focusing on the officials and teaching your players disrespect of the game administration - instead, try teaching them to focus on playing the game within the context of whatever the officials dictate. No one is perfect and we all learn as we advance ; trotting around with a rulebook and teaching defiance to your players is not impressive. No wonder you lost the game - you kept your players too distracted from what was important on the court.

Good advice, jk. He ain't gonna believe you though. Lost cause.

[Y2Koach]

thanks for your feedback. I have my team line up for freethrows a certain way because we are undersized. The 2 players on the side with the opponents best rebounder are to pinch down to help each other out. On the other side, our inside guy boxes out 1 vs 1, usually giving up several inches and pounds, and the top guy goes to box out the shooter (waiting for the ball to hit the rim of course). So with this method to try to combat our lack of height, there is a "pocket" that is unoccupied. If our 5th guy is not in a good position to retrieve any loose balls, we are very susceptible to long rebounds. As a team philosophy, on defense we always rebound 5. On freethrows, we cannot afford to take any shots for granted.

We were lining up thusly the entire game and nothing was said. With so little time left, I do not have the luxury of pulling my team to the sideline and "re-teaching" them how we want to rebound on freethrows. I teach my players to know what their job is and to do it.

I was not "trotting around with a rulebook" distracting my players. My players were doing what they were supposed to be doing (well, the defensive rotations for the first 3 quarters was horrible, but thats not what we are discussing). Its kinda funny how you want to stick up for an official and throw out snide remarks. I take that as just a side-effect of the internet and do not take it to heart. I am not teaching my players "defiance". I am teaching them they need to do whatever they can within the rules to do their job. As an extreme example, what if during the state championship game, an official tells my player he is not allowed to set screens on smaller players because its "unfair and against the spirit of competition"??? Know the rules, know the game, play hard.

When you say to "focus on playing the game within the context of whatever the officials dictate", there is a trust that the official is officiating the game within the bounds of the rules. I did not speak directly to the official until he told me 3 times that "i need to know the rules". What part of officiating is that? I was focused on the "context" of the game, that is why i did not burn a Timeout to discuss the rule. We are trying to win a game. We are doing what we are permitted to do within the rules.

Again, thanks for your input

[Y2Koach]

I actually said 90% of the officials in my area would call that specific play traveling.

In a separate statement, I also said that 10% of the officials in our association are very good. That would leave the remaining 90% to be average to not-so-average. That also is not a statement about officials in any other areas.

But if you feel that any critique about officials demeans and denigrates the whole profession, I am sorry you feel so defensive. I often have good discussions with officials in our association (they even seek me out before games sometimes when i am out scouting, to quiz me on obscure situations, etc). The top officials seem to also agree that the overall quality of the officiating in our area has dropped as of late due to conditions that drive the better officials elsewhere. So i guess that means those officials are demeaing and denigrating officials also.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I recommend that you stick your rule book up your azz.

After the way that you have already denigrated and demeaned all basketball officials, that is the only answer that you deserve to get.

Why are you asking us anyway? You've already informed us that being such a renowned, self-acclaimed rules junky, you already know more than 90% of the officials. If you're that smart, answer your own damn questions. Look 'em up in your rule book. You sureashell don't need us.

Lah me.......

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

No one is perfect and we all learn as we advance [/B].

when exactly was this official supposed to learn this rule? If and when he ever does a game again with an evaluator, AND the exact same situation, AND the evaluator is close enough to the action to hear what the ref is saying erroneously to the player, after THAT game?

[Nevadaref]

Coach,
If I had been in your shoes, I would have told my player to position himself just above the top of the key and outside the 3 pt line as the official working that game was demanding. Of course, he was mistaken, but there are many little things like this that quite a few officials get incorrect. For example, many officials believe that during the FTs for a technical foul the other players must retreat to halfcourt.

This was a small thing and I'm sure that this official was enforcing this positioning on both teams, so there was no advantage to either side.

Following the game, I would have contacted the local assignor or referee association and informed them of this referee's mistaken understanding of the FT rule, and asked for them to address it with him. That would have likely fixed the problem.

I just feel that it is too small of a thing to make a fuss over during a game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

The top officials seem to also agree that the overall quality of the officiating in our area has dropped as of late due to conditions that drive the better officials elsewhere.

You're one of those conditions. And if your top officials are saying things like that to you, then they are about as integrity-free as socalref.

You aren't the most believable source in the world, for sure.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

Wow. Jurassic, you need a new handle. Like, T-rex. Or T-ref. Or the shredder. I love the way you roll!

I love the way JR rolls too! I don't like it when coaches or others come to this forum to trash officials.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

Recognize that you aren't likely to win this argument during the game. Then try something like, "Isn't the rule that the player must be above the FT line and beyond the arc?" If the official respnds, "No", then say, "Maybe we should both look it up after the game so we know for sure next time."

Not all officials will look it up. Some will. Over time, all will be smarter.

[Ref in PA]

You could also ask the refs to clarify something after the game. During the game, as has already been said, you are stuck with the rule knowledge of those out on the court. Some refs would be willing to talk after the game, but not during. When I am out on the court, I have to be confident that my rules knowledge is 100% correct. If a coach has an issue with the interpretation of a rule, he has two choices - wait until after the game where one of us will be enlightened or pursue the issue which will likely cost him a T or worse. During the game all are stuck with my current rules knowledge.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

I'll ask you a question, then answer this one.

Did it work?

Here's my recommendation. Adjust during this game, contact the assigner or someone else at the association to discuss the ruling the next day.