A&M/Memphis finish

[BillP73]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I don't really have a problem with people asking questions and trying to understand. I do have a problem with us assuming they got it wrong because we dont understand, which some of us are clearly doing. Perhaps not you. I don't KNOW that "One official blew/signaled the play dead". We hear a whistle, but we don't know why that whistle was blown. Perhaps it was just a premature whistle, knowing full well that the clock hadn't started and that the ball was going out of bounds. THat is, we don't know what that ref was thinking, so we can't assum it was supposed to be a signal as to when the clock should stop. I just think that all the comments about "I can't believe the ref ignored the whistle, and timed clear till the ball touched the table person?" are really short-sighted and small minded.

Fair enough, rain.

I'd like to see the NCAA come forth today and make a comment on the decision process. I'm more than willing to give them the opportunity to put forth a reasonable explanation. It's certainly not too much to ask considering the weight of the game.

BTW, while I stand on the side of believing an error was likely made...none of this cost A&M the game. The half-second we're fretting about wasn't going to net Kirk some clear 20-foot shot. I'm more concerned with the precedent this may have set in regard to how they decide to start using replay.

Further, they are taking way too much time to look at these plays. I haven't gone into the archives to check out the chatter on the Miami/Akron game...but that dwarfed last night in terms of poor use of the replay monitor.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by BillP73

Fair enough, rain.

I'd like to see the NCAA come forth today and make a comment on the decision process. I'm more than willing to give them the opportunity to put forth a reasonable explanation. It's certainly not too much to ask considering the weight of the game.

BTW, while I stand on the side of believing an error was likely made...none of this cost A&M the game. The half-second we're fretting about wasn't going to net Kirk some clear 20-foot shot. I'm more concerned with the precedent this may have set in regard to how they decide to start using replay.

Further, they are taking way too much time to look at these plays. I haven't gone into the archives to check out the chatter on the Miami/Akron game...but that dwarfed last night in terms of poor use of the replay monitor.

I agree with you. Actually in this situation the extra time would have allowed a different scenario as far as an inbound pass or dribble shot. However, the officials did get it right.

[Camron Rust]

Jurrassic, I think you've missed this one.

The whistle definitely marks the point where the ball becomes dead. There is NO question about that. The fact that the clock didn't start properly has no bearing on how and when the ball becomes dead.

If (and I say IF) the official blew the wistle for an OOB violation when the ball bounced, then the time correction should have been between the time of the touch to the time of the whistle.

Sure, the whistle was wrong if the ball didn't actually bounce OOB, but that is done and you can't unblow the whistle.

Given how much time they did take off, they counted from the touch the the time the ball really did touch OOB. If the official did blow the whistle for the bounce, they got it wrong.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Jurrassic, I think you've missed this one.

The whistle definitely marks the point where the ball becomes dead. There is NO question about that. The fact that the clock didn't start properly has no bearing on how and when the ball becomes dead.

If (and I say IF) the official blew the wistle for an OOB violation when the ball bounced, then the time correction should have been between the time of the touch to the time of the whistle.

Sure, the whistle was wrong if the ball didn't actually bounce OOB, but that is done and you can't unblow the whistle.

Now, why did it take me 1,000 words to say the same thing?!?!?!

I agree with Camron's post completely.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The whistle definitely marks the point where the ball becomes dead. There is NO question about that. The fact that the clock didn't start properly has no bearing on how and when the ball becomes dead.

If (and I say IF) the official blew the wistle for an OOB violation when the ball bounced, then the time correction should have been between the time of the touch to the time of the whistle.

Sure, the whistle was wrong if the ball didn't actually bounce OOB, but that is done and you can't unblow the whistle.

Given how much time they did take off, they counted from the touch the the time the ball really did touch OOB. If the official did blow the whistle for the bounce, they got it wrong.

So, you're basically saying that there was an IW, correct? How do you rule the play then for an IW on a live, loose ball?Is it the same call if A&M had been the last to touch the ball in-bounds before the whistle and the ball subsequently hitting OOB? Throw-in by A&M....ball tipped on the court by A&M and is going OOB....IW during a live loose ball....ball lands OOB. You're gonna give the ball back to A&M, even though they touched the ball last in-bounds?

Answer me that, guys, if you're so convinced that you're right. Are you going to the POI for an IW after taking time off the clock?

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So, you're basically saying that there was an IW, correct? How do you rule the play then for an IW on a live, loose ball?Is it the same call if A&M had been the last to touch the ball in-bounds before the whistle and the ball subsequently hitting OOB? Throw-in by A&M....ball tipped on the court by A&M and is going OOB....IW during a live loose ball....ball lands OOB. You're gonna give the ball back to A&M, even though they touched the ball last in-bounds?

Answer me that, guys, if you're so convinced that you're right. Are you going to the POI for an IW after taking time off the clock?

This is just a situation where you set aside a rule to do the right thing.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

This is just a situation where you set aside a rule to do the right thing.

There is no situation that you set aside the rule to "do the right thing". NCAA Rule 2.2.2 specifically says, "No official has the authority to set aside any official rules or approved interpretations." Once we open the door to setting aside rules in order to do the right thing, we might as well throw out the rule book and just call whatever we want.

This is what my problem is with the whole situation. As I've been trying to point out all along, and Cameron said much better than I have, if a whistle was blown to signal OOB then the time interval that should have elapsed by rule is from the touching to whistle. By rule this is what should happen; what is right according to had things gone perfectly is another thing, and that is what the officials were trying to accomplish. However, unless we are going to start ignoring 2.2.2. we can't set aside rules as I believe they did. I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing had I been in their position. In going through all that happened and all the rules/interps I'm sure they were going through in a span of 5-10 minutes, I'm sure it would be easy to overlook Rule 5.9.1c. I spent almost 30 minutes looking for it in the comfort of my own home, I'd hate to think of what I'd have come up with in 10 minutes with thousands of screaming fans yelling at me.

[sseltser]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YiI-4_0zOiE

Form your own opinion if you think the official said this hit the line.

[BillP73]

Well said, Boomer. Can't quarrel with any of that.

It's hard to have this discussion because 50% of the folks didn't hear a whistle, and the half of us (like myself) feel that there was a clear indication that the play was dead at the point it bounced near the line. Without agreement on that point, everyone is interpreting the situation differently...and on some levels apples and oranges are being compared here.

IF the whistle was blown, the way you just prescribed seems to be the only way to apply the rules properly.

I'd like to hear an explanation from the NCAA. Hopefully, one's forthcoming.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

We can't set aside rules as I believe they did.

So you disagree with me.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing had I been in their position.

No, now you agree with me...I'm confused.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So, you're basically saying that there was an IW, correct?

That's not what anyone has said. It wasn't an IW, it was a whistle for a violation, though it appears it was a missed call.

A mistaken call is not an IW.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

That's not what anyone has said. It wasn't an IW, it was a whistle for a violation, though it appears it was a missed call.

A mistaken call is not an IW.

It's not always a good thing to do any with some of the o'l mechanics, ie. raised arm, open hand to kill the clock. If this was still a required mechanic at NCAA level, then that would definitely negate any question of an IW.

I too, believe there was a whistle to stop the clock, as the T, after chopping the clock in, immediately points to the floor/sideline, basically saying the ball hit OOB. No reason for him to do that if he didn't hit his whistle.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So, you're basically saying that there was an IW, correct? How do you rule the play then for an IW on a live, loose ball?Is it the same call if A&M had been the last to touch the ball in-bounds before the whistle and the ball subsequently hitting OOB? Throw-in by A&M....ball tipped on the court by A&M and is going OOB....IW during a live loose ball....ball lands OOB. You're gonna give the ball back to A&M, even though they touched the ball last in-bounds?

Who cares? This is completely irrelevant to the question of how much time should come off the clock. It's a total non-sequitor. The possibility that the correct ruling will lead to a difficult (unusual or unpopular) resumption of play matters not at all.

So, Jurassic, if you're so convinced that you're right, what rule can you offer to justify taking time off the clock that includes time after the ball became dead by rule? I think this is a very straight-forward question, yet you haven't answered it. All you can offer is the observation that the clock never started.

[JRutledge]

Not sure why this is so hard. The clock did not start. The officials looked at the time and judge 1.1 would come off. If anyone is doing the speculation, it is those trying to talk about IW and violations that were never apart of the review from what anyone can see. The official blew the whistle when the ball was out of bounds while near the bench or table area. All I am hearing is speculation as to why they reviewed the video and that they did not apply the rule properly.

Peace

[wildcatter]

The officials need definite information as to how much time should be taken off, and when the whistle blew has got nothing to do with establishing that definite information. The actual time that elapsed between a legal touch in-bounds until the ball touched OOB is definite information.

But it is not the CORRECT information. The correct information is not the time that elapses between when the Memphis player touches the ball and when the ball is truly out of bounds. The correct information is the time that elapses between when the Memphis player touches the ball and when the official signaled to stop the clock either with his whistle or hand.

Section 5. Officials Use of Replay/Television Equipment
Art. 1. Officials may use official courtside replay equipment, videotape or television monitoring that is located on a designated courtside table (i.e., within approximately 3 to 12 feet of the playing court), when such equipment is available only in situations as follows:

f. A determination, based on the judgment of the official, that a timing
mistake has occurred in either starting or stopping the game clock.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake shall be corrected during the
first dead ball or during the next live ball but before the ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have
been continuously running, the mistake shall be corrected before the
second live ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player.


The fact that the point at which the official should end measured elapsed time is implied - it's when the official blows the whistle or signals for the game clock to be stopped. It's implied because the next paragraph implies it.

g. A determination of the correct time to be placed back on the game
clock when the referee blows the whistle, signals for the game clock
to be stopped, and in his/her judgment time has elapsed before the
game clock stopped.

Like I said, a different situation, but play (and elapsed time) stops on the whistle or signal, not when the ball goes out of bounds. The official must signal when the ball goes out of bounds or signal - no violation matters after the official. The fact that the clock did not start does not make the play following it any different. If a referee whistled and motioned for the clock to stop at 2.7 seconds, before a ball hit the OOB line at 2.0 seconds, then the clock would be stopped at 2.7 seconds - it's an official's mistake, and cannot be reviewed on the monitor. The fact that the timer also makes a mistake does not make this any different - measurement of time elapsed goes from signal to signal.

The whistle and signal matter. No violation itself stops the clock. A ball going OOB cannot stop the clock. Only a whistle/signal can. When the official whistled/signaled, the clock should have stopped had it been running - therefore the time that should have elapsed should be measured only until that point.

This is NOT and CANNOT be an inadvertent whistle. The ref had a call to make and he made it - he thought the ball was out of bounds early, and whistled the clock dead then. It makes no difference when measuring the time elapsed that the ball didn't truly go out of bounds for another however many tenths of a second (up to .5 maybe?)!!

The amount of time used, by rule, is the time lapsed from the ball being legally touched in-bounds by the Memphis player until the ball then touches something-anything-out of bounds.

NO! It's till the whistle. If it's early, well tough luck for Memphis, but it's till the whistle! The points at which the whistle blew and when the ball touched anything-out-of-bounds are different. There is no rule that says replay can be used to determine when the ball truly touched something out of bounds. Most times a ball going OOB and a ref's whistle are at approximately the same point - in this case, it obviously was not.

Not that any of this probably mattered in the game, it was probably a negligible less than .5 second difference... but this is an official's forum and this mistake could be made to an even greater degree where it really makes a 2 second or more difference.