A&M/Memphis finish

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So, you're basically saying that there was an IW, correct?

That's not what anyone has said. It wasn't an IW, it was a whistle for a violation, though it appears it was a missed call.

A mistaken call is not an IW.

[sseltser]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YiI-4_0zOiE

Form your own opinion if you think the official said this hit the line.

[BillP73]

Well said, Boomer. Can't quarrel with any of that.

It's hard to have this discussion because 50% of the folks didn't hear a whistle, and the half of us (like myself) feel that there was a clear indication that the play was dead at the point it bounced near the line. Without agreement on that point, everyone is interpreting the situation differently...and on some levels apples and oranges are being compared here.

IF the whistle was blown, the way you just prescribed seems to be the only way to apply the rules properly.

I'd like to hear an explanation from the NCAA. Hopefully, one's forthcoming.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

We can't set aside rules as I believe they did.

So you disagree with me.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing had I been in their position.

No, now you agree with me...I'm confused.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by BillP73

Fair enough, rain.

I'd like to see the NCAA come forth today and make a comment on the decision process. I'm more than willing to give them the opportunity to put forth a reasonable explanation. It's certainly not too much to ask considering the weight of the game.

It may not be too much to ask for you and me. But most of the public are gonna be like some of the fanboys on this site who don't want an explanation for intellectual reasons, they want to argue and vent. I wouldn't subject myself to that, and I don't when I ref. I certainly don't expect them to.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It may not be too much to ask for you and me. But most of the public are gonna be like some of the fanboys on this site who don't want an explanation for intellectual reasons, they want to argue and vent. I wouldn't subject myself to that, and I don't when I ref. I certainly don't expect them to.

That's especially true if the officials are wrong.

IF it's significant, we'll see some interps or guidleines to the officials for next season.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's especially true if the officials are wrong.

IF it's significant, we'll see some interps or guidleines to the officials for next season.

Right.

But I suspect since the ncaa has kept their mouths shut so far we'll see some of that crew in the final game.

Just my opinion of course.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

That's not what anyone has said. It wasn't an IW, it was a whistle for a violation, though it appears it was a missed call.

A mistaken call is not an IW.

It's not always a good thing to do any with some of the o'l mechanics, ie. raised arm, open hand to kill the clock. If this was still a required mechanic at NCAA level, then that would definitely negate any question of an IW.

I too, believe there was a whistle to stop the clock, as the T, after chopping the clock in, immediately points to the floor/sideline, basically saying the ball hit OOB. No reason for him to do that if he didn't hit his whistle.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner
We can't set aside rules as I believe they did.

So you disagree with me.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner
I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing had I been in their position.

No, now you agree with me...I'm confused.

You've taken my point out of context. What I'm saying is that we in discussing what should have happened can't set aside the rule. Were I in the same place as the officials without the benefit of sitting in the comfort of my home and having the entire rule book at my disposal I would have likely done the same. All I am saying is that I can't blame the crew for the decision they came made, but nonetheless I feel it wasn't the right way to handle it given the benefit of hindsight.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So, you're basically saying that there was an IW, correct? How do you rule the play then for an IW on a live, loose ball?Is it the same call if A&M had been the last to touch the ball in-bounds before the whistle and the ball subsequently hitting OOB? Throw-in by A&M....ball tipped on the court by A&M and is going OOB....IW during a live loose ball....ball lands OOB. You're gonna give the ball back to A&M, even though they touched the ball last in-bounds?

Who cares? This is completely irrelevant to the question of how much time should come off the clock. It's a total non-sequitor. The possibility that the correct ruling will lead to a difficult (unusual or unpopular) resumption of play matters not at all.

So, Jurassic, if you're so convinced that you're right, what rule can you offer to justify taking time off the clock that includes time after the ball became dead by rule? I think this is a very straight-forward question, yet you haven't answered it. All you can offer is the observation that the clock never started.

[JRutledge]

Not sure why this is so hard. The clock did not start. The officials looked at the time and judge 1.1 would come off. If anyone is doing the speculation, it is those trying to talk about IW and violations that were never apart of the review from what anyone can see. The official blew the whistle when the ball was out of bounds while near the bench or table area. All I am hearing is speculation as to why they reviewed the video and that they did not apply the rule properly.

Peace

[wildcatter]

The officials need definite information as to how much time should be taken off, and when the whistle blew has got nothing to do with establishing that definite information. The actual time that elapsed between a legal touch in-bounds until the ball touched OOB is definite information.

But it is not the CORRECT information. The correct information is not the time that elapses between when the Memphis player touches the ball and when the ball is truly out of bounds. The correct information is the time that elapses between when the Memphis player touches the ball and when the official signaled to stop the clock either with his whistle or hand.

Section 5. Officials Use of Replay/Television Equipment
Art. 1. Officials may use official courtside replay equipment, videotape or television monitoring that is located on a designated courtside table (i.e., within approximately 3 to 12 feet of the playing court), when such equipment is available only in situations as follows:

f. A determination, based on the judgment of the official, that a timing
mistake has occurred in either starting or stopping the game clock.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake shall be corrected during the
first dead ball or during the next live ball but before the ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have
been continuously running, the mistake shall be corrected before the
second live ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player.


The fact that the point at which the official should end measured elapsed time is implied - it's when the official blows the whistle or signals for the game clock to be stopped. It's implied because the next paragraph implies it.

g. A determination of the correct time to be placed back on the game
clock when the referee blows the whistle, signals for the game clock
to be stopped, and in his/her judgment time has elapsed before the
game clock stopped.

Like I said, a different situation, but play (and elapsed time) stops on the whistle or signal, not when the ball goes out of bounds. The official must signal when the ball goes out of bounds or signal - no violation matters after the official. The fact that the clock did not start does not make the play following it any different. If a referee whistled and motioned for the clock to stop at 2.7 seconds, before a ball hit the OOB line at 2.0 seconds, then the clock would be stopped at 2.7 seconds - it's an official's mistake, and cannot be reviewed on the monitor. The fact that the timer also makes a mistake does not make this any different - measurement of time elapsed goes from signal to signal.

The whistle and signal matter. No violation itself stops the clock. A ball going OOB cannot stop the clock. Only a whistle/signal can. When the official whistled/signaled, the clock should have stopped had it been running - therefore the time that should have elapsed should be measured only until that point.

This is NOT and CANNOT be an inadvertent whistle. The ref had a call to make and he made it - he thought the ball was out of bounds early, and whistled the clock dead then. It makes no difference when measuring the time elapsed that the ball didn't truly go out of bounds for another however many tenths of a second (up to .5 maybe?)!!

The amount of time used, by rule, is the time lapsed from the ball being legally touched in-bounds by the Memphis player until the ball then touches something-anything-out of bounds.

NO! It's till the whistle. If it's early, well tough luck for Memphis, but it's till the whistle! The points at which the whistle blew and when the ball touched anything-out-of-bounds are different. There is no rule that says replay can be used to determine when the ball truly touched something out of bounds. Most times a ball going OOB and a ref's whistle are at approximately the same point - in this case, it obviously was not.

Not that any of this probably mattered in the game, it was probably a negligible less than .5 second difference... but this is an official's forum and this mistake could be made to an even greater degree where it really makes a 2 second or more difference.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not sure why this is so hard. The clock did not start. The officials looked at the time and judge 1.1 would come off. If anyone is doing the speculation, it is those trying to talk about IW and violations that were never apart of the review from what anyone can see. The official blew the whistle when the ball was out of bounds while near the bench or table area. All I am hearing is speculation as to why they reviewed the video and that they did not apply the rule properly.

Peace

The reason it is an issue is because you need to know when the ball became dead to know how much time to take off. It becomes dead either when it touches OOB or when the whistle blew...whichever came first....even if the whistle was in error. There is no dispute that some correction was needed...the clock never started.

By taking 1.1 off the clock, that means they timed from the touch to when it actually hit something OOB since there is no way that it took 1.1 seconds from the hand to the floor....that was far less than 1 second.

So, If an official blew the whistle when it hit the floor, that could have only been for a perceived violation; and, while the violation can be rescinded as an inadvertent whistle, it can't be ignored for the purposes of correcting the clock....the ball is dead on the whistle.

IIRC, the official did point at the spot on the floor where it bounced and did appear to call a violation at that time. If not and the first point it touched OOB was later, why was he signally something when the ball had not yet touched OOB.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The reason it is an issue is because you need to know when the ball became dead to know how much time to take off. It becomes dead either when it touches OOB or when the whistle blew...whichever came first....even if the whistle was in error. There is no dispute that some correction was needed...the clock never started.

By taking 1.1 off the clock, that means they timed from the touch to when it actually hit something OOB since there is no way that it took 1.1 seconds from the hand to the floor....that was far less than 1 second.

So, If an official blew the whistle when it hit the floor, that could have only been for a perceived violation; and, while the violation can be rescinded as an inadvertent whistle, it can't be ignored for the purposes of correcting the clock....the ball is dead on the whistle.

IIRC, the official did point at the spot on the floor where it bounced and did appear to call a violation at that time. If not and the first point it touched OOB was later, why was he signally something when the ball had not yet touched OOB.

But he did not blow his whistle when the ball hit the floor. So that only becomes an issue for those that have not seen the tape on youtube.com.

My point is you are reaching for something to complain about if that is your point of view. And if there were no tenths of a second on the clock, no one would say a word about this if you ask me.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

So, Jurassic, if you're so convinced that you're right, what rule can you offer to justify taking time off the clock that includes time after the ball became dead by rule? I think this is a very straight-forward question, yet you haven't answered it. All you can offer is the observation that the clock never started.

Um, where may I confirm that a whistle had actually blown and the clock was dead? Am I to believe the conspiracy fanboys that are posting that? Or do I believe a valid, trusted source like Dan? Afaik, the officials simply followed rule 2-5-1(f). That's what the R, Hess, seemed to say in his statement. He timed the sequence from last touched in-bounds to first touching OOB, and took that time off the clock. I agreed with the way Hess handled it.

All I'm asking is for one of the experienced, wise NCAA officials like yourself, Scrappy, to edjumucate me. If it really did happen the way that you are saying it did, and you were in Hess' shoes, what would you do? What is the proper way, by rule, to deal with the play if the whistle had gone, as claimed, before the ball touched OOB?

Again, an A&M throw-in is followed by (1)a Memphis player, or (2) an A&M player legally touching but not controlling the ball the ball in-bounds. The ball is going OOB, but has not touched anything OOB when an official blows his whistle.
Questions:
1) Is that an IW?
2) If it isn't an IW, then what is it?
3) How do you handle this play if an A&M player was the last player to legally touch the ball in-bounds on the throw-in?
4) How do you handle this play if a Memphis player was the last player to legally touch the ball in-bounds on the throw-in?
5) Who gets the ball in both #3 and #4 above if (a)Memphis has the arrow, or (b) A&M has the arrow.


All I'm asking is that you please share your rules knowledge with myself and others. I might even agree with you when you're done.

Much appreciated.