Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Greetings all - had a play last weekend that I would like some opinions on:

After a TO, Team A (down by 6) is inbounding the ball on the endline after a made basket with 32.3 seconds in the 4th QTR. A1 throws the ball in and A2 allows it to bounce/roll to about midcourt without touching it in an attempt to keep the clock stopped.

As soon as I realize that A2 has not touched the ball I glance up and see the clock running. When I kill the play the ball is roughly at the division line. After instructing the timer to put 32.3 back up I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on where to inbound the ball.

For the record I inbounded at half court with 32.3 on the clock because that was the location of the live ball when I stopped play to fix the timing error and I could see Team B's coach salivating over the opportunity to put the ball on the endline and slap a press on, in effect allowing the timing error to deny Team A the precious 2 or 3 seconds it earned on the original inbound.

I happen to believe that this play IS covered by the current NFHS rules, unfortunately quite poorly.

The pertinent rules are:

DEAD BALL
6-7-5 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
. . . An official's whistle is blown

ALTERNATING POSSESSION
6-4-3 . . . Alternating-possession throw-ins shall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:
e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
4-12-6 . . . Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

BALL LOCATION,
4-4-3 . . . A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Therefore, by the current wording of the NFHS rules, this play results in an AP throw-in from the nearest OOB spot to where the ball last contacted the floor. I'll state now that I believe that this is an absolutely horrible outcome, but it is the current application of the rules. In my opinion, any official who did it that way would need a police escort out of the gym, if the arrow happened to favor the defense. So what else can we do?

What should have been done two years ago when the definition of POI was added is that the sentence from 6-4-3e should have been moved into 4-36-1. It is very similar to an interrupted game, but not exactly the same. The two should be treated in the same manner though. (Note: Until the rules are changed, I'm ruling that the situation in the OP IS an "interrupted game" and applying the POI rule.)

What this would do is allow the POI sequence to properly be applied to this situation. 4-36-2a would be bypassed as there is no team control, but 4-36-2b would take precedence over 4-36-2c, since the stoppage occurred DURING the throw-in, thus the AP arrow would not need to be used. (However, if the ball had been tapped or deflected on the court, but the whistle sounded prior to control being established, then 4-36-2c would take effect.)

RULE 4, SECTION 36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION
ART. 1 . . . Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10. [The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, (time-out,) nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.]
ART. 2 …Play shall be resumed by one of the following:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.

Applying this would give the ball back to the throwing team at the original throw-in location because 4-36-2b does NOT say ball location. A casebook play could be added to clarify this.

I'll pass this along to my fellow NV official who is on the NFHS rules committee. The wording needs some fine-tuning to account for time-outs, but I think that we can make it right.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I happen to believe that this play IS covered by the current NFHS rules, unfortunately quite poorly.

The pertinent rules are:

DEAD BALL
6-7-5 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
. . . An official's whistle is blown

ALTERNATING POSSESSION
6-4-3 . . . Alternating-possession throw-ins shall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:
e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
4-12-6 . . . Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

BALL LOCATION,
4-3-3 . . . A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Therefore, by the current wording of the NFHS rules, this play results in an AP throw-in from the nearest OOB spot to where the ball last contacted the floor. I'll state now that I believe that this is an absolutely horrible outcome, but it is the current application of the rules. In my opinion, any official who did it that way would need a police escort out of the gym, if the arrow happened to favor the defense. So what else can we do?

What should have been done two years ago when the definition of POI was added is that the sentence from 6-4-3e should have been moved into 4-36-1. It is very similar to an interrupted game, but not exactly the same. The two should be treated in the same manner though. (Note: Until the rules are changed, I'm ruling that the situation in the OP IS an "interrupted game" and applying the POI rule.)

What this would do is allow the POI sequence to properly be applied to this situation. 4-36-2a would be bypassed as there is no team control, but 4-36-2b would take precedence over 4-36-2c, since the stoppage occurred DURING the throw-in, thus the AP arrow would not need to be used. (However, if the ball had been tapped or deflected on the court, but the whistle sounded prior to control being established, then 4-36-2c would take effect.)

RULE 4, SECTION 36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION
ART. 1 . . . Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10. [The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, (time-out,) nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.]
ART. 2 …Play shall be resumed by one of the following:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.

Applying this would give the ball back to the throwing team at the original throw-in location because 4-36-2b does NOT say ball location. A casebook play could be added to clarify this.

I'll pass this along to my fellow NV official who is on the NFHS rules committee. The wording needs some fine-tuning to account for time-outs, but I think that we can make it right.

I happen to believe you're completely wrong. Nowayinhell is that the purpose and intent of the rule. Your personal interpretation above is just plain ludicrous.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I happen to believe you're completely wrong. Nowayinhell is that the purpose and intent of the rule. Your personal interpretation above is just plain ludicrous.

You have to go to purpose and intent, JR, because you can't argue with the wording that I cited.

Now aren't you the guy who always says to enforce the rules AS WRITTEN?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You have to go to purpose and intent, JR, because you can't argue with the wording that I cited.

Now aren't you the guy who always says to enforce the rules AS WRITTEN?

Nevada, to be quite honest, I didn't read your post to the end. I was laughing too hard. You've come with some dandies before, but that one ranks right up there with your best.

Again, ludicrous.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I happen to believe that this play IS covered by the current NFHS rules, unfortunately quite poorly.

The pertinent rules are:

BALL LOCATION,
4-3-3 . . . A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.

Assuming you blow the whistle before anyone touches the ball after it's rolled in why does the ball retain the location it last touched on the court instead of where it last touched a player?

Note they use the word *or*.

Geeze...time to visit the ignore feature.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.

That I'll agree with.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.

Assuming you blow the whistle before anyone touches the ball after it's rolled in why does the ball retain the location it last touched on the court instead of where it last touched a player?

Note they use the word *or*.

Geeze...time to visit the ignore feature.

It doesn't apply on a throw-in. So are you gonna assume the throw-in would have been completed? You can't give the team something they didn't earn. The only way the new throw-in spot changes is if the previous throw-in is completed. There was no infraction that would place the ball at a new spot when the whistle blew.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

It doesn't apply on a throw-in.

Ya know, I looked and I looked and I looked again and I just cannot find that little asterisk that says "does not apply to throw-ins".

You're gonna have to help me out here. Extra credit if you can quote a real rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Ya know, I looked and I looked and I looked again and I just cannot find that little asterisk that says "does not apply to throw-ins".

You're gonna have to help me out here. Extra credit if you can quote a real rule.

This is scary. Dan and I agree on this. Why wouldn't 4-4-3 apply during a throw-in? Is there somewhere in the rules where it says that it doesn't?

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is scary. Dan and I agree on this. Why wouldn't 4-3-3 apply during a throw-in? Is there somewhere in the rules where it says that it doesn't?

Legitimate question followed by another:

If you have a double foul in the key after the throw-in has been released but before it is touched(like the current situation), where is the POI?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Legitimate question followed by another:

If you have a double foul in the key after the throw-in has been released but before it is touched(like the current situation), where is the POI?

Ah, answering a question with another question. I like that, I'll give it a shot...

Where in the original post is there a foul of any type?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Legitimate question followed by another:

If you have a double foul in the key after the throw-in has been released but before it is touched(like the current situation), where is the POI?

The original throw-in spot.

Why? -- because a double foul DURING a throw-in is clearly one of the items listed in 4-36-1 that invokes the POI rule. Ball location doesn't matter if the double foul happened DURING the throw-in because 4-36-2b doesn't say to go to the location of the ball, only 4-36-2a does. For part b the POI is the throw-in.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by socalreff

The only way the new throw-in spot changes is if the previous throw-in is completed. There was no infraction that would place the ball at a new spot when the whistle blew.

For instance, if the ball continued rolling and went OOBs, we have a turnover and team B would return to the baseline for an inbounds... so why wouldn't it return to the baseline after the official's whistle for the clock correction?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

For instance, if the ball continued rolling and went OOBs, we have a turnover and team B would return to the baseline for an inbounds... so why wouldn't it return to the baseline after the official's whistle for the clock correction?

Because there are two completely different rules that would come into play. If the ball went OOB untouched, 9-2-2 is the governing rule and the penalty for section 2 on page 56 says that the throw-in goes back to the original spot. If the official sounds the whistle to stop the game for a clock problem, the we need to use the rule that governs that stoppage. That rule says to go to the location of the ball, so 4-3-3 must be consulted and that will determine the placement of the ensuing throw-in.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because there are two completely different rules that would come into play. If the ball went OOB untouched, 9-2-2 is the governing rule and the penalty for section 2 on page 56 says that the throw-in goes back to the original spot. If the official sounds the whistle to stop the game for a clock problem, the we need to use the rule that governs that stoppage. That rule says to go to the location of the ball, so 4-3-3 must be consulted and that will determine the placement of the ensuing throw-in.

I keep seeing your reference to 4-3-3. Do you not know that this rule is to set the direction of the INITIAL ARROW, that would be the setting the arrow at the beginning of the game or the beginning of OT. This has nothing to do with the OP. Furthermore, the original post states that after coming out of TO after a made basket, Team A rolls the ball down the court...... The official blew the whistle before the throw-in ENDED, the ball is dead, whether the whistle was inadvertent or to correct the clock, the throw-in after a made basket did not end, nor was there a violation on the throw-in team, so you give the ball back to the Team A, back at the endline (and he can run the endline), and let's play.