Head coach late arrival to game

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Yes, it does matter. I agree with Scrapper and the others that I don't like the rule as written, but it is a rule, in the casebook 10.5.1 Sit E. In a game situation, I probably won't notice that the coach is sitting out of the box, and I'll end up booting the rule by mistake, but that doesn't change the rule as written.

That's why we have the ability to add judgment to any rule, intelligently applying the rules. If you where to enforce this rule precisely as written, you would be wrong. It's only an issue if the coach is screaming about something. Don't look for trouble. Just tell him to get in the box. On the other hand, if the coach is screaming at you and he/she is out of the box after warning them. You have a GO! Green Light! Whack 'em!!!

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

That's why we have the ability to add judgment to any rule, intelligently applying the rules. If you where to enforce this rule precisely as written, you would be wrong. It's only an issue if the coach is screaming about something. Don't look for trouble. Just tell him to get in the box. On the other hand, if the coach is screaming at you and he/she is out of the box after warning them. You have a GO! Green Light! Whack 'em!!!

Darn it, don't make it sound like you agree with me!

I didn't say I would ignore the rule, or that I would disregard it. I said, I probably wouldn't notice. I didn't mean the not noticing would be intentional.

We DO NOT have the ability to add judgment to any rule. That is not written anywhere in the rule book, or anywhere else. The judgment that we are given is only to see where a certain play or situation fits into the rules, not whether or not to apply the rules. I don't like the rule about not changing the jersey near the bench, but I can't just choose to pretend it's not there. If have to enforce it, regardless of my personal opinions.

[stmaryrams]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Darn it, don't make it sound like you agree with me!

I didn't say I would ignore the rule, or that I would disregard it. I said, I probably wouldn't notice. I didn't mean the not noticing would be intentional.

I think where Juulie is going with this is there were other things more important going on that precludes my looking to see where a coach is seated or standing at tip off. I may glance but I am looking at the table and the players to confirm their being ready and whether the toss was straight or ...

I actually don't notice if the coach is in or out of the box unless I'm on that side of the floor and play is near or in the general area of the coach. I had one "T" for being out of the box this year on an assistant who got up following an intentional foul (easy whack) and maybe three "get in the box coach" comments during my season.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

That's why we have the ability to add judgment to any rule, intelligently applying the rules. If you where to enforce this rule precisely as written, you would be wrong. It's only an issue if the coach is screaming about something. Don't look for trouble. Just tell him to get in the box. On the other hand, if the coach is screaming at you and he/she is out of the box after warning them. You have a GO! Green Light! Whack 'em!!!

Completely wrong according to the recent NFHS Points of Emphasis.

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned with player, coach and fan behavior. While administrators continue to focus on solutions, it is imperative that all parties involved accept responsibility and improve behavior. Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed:...

D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Completely wrong according to the recent NFHS Points of Emphasis.

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned with player, coach and fan behavior. While administrators continue to focus on solutions, it is imperative that all parties involved accept responsibility and improve behavior. Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed:...

D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.

No doubt, you're on top of it!

[BayStateRef]

Girls varsity game early this season. Visitors have two coaches -- a man and a woman. Every action tells me he is the head coach and she is the assistant. We do the pregame with the coaches and he attends; as the the players are introduced, he shakes their hands; first time out by V and he calls it A minute later I see both two coaches standing ... one towards the table; the other at the other end of the bench. At the next dead ball, I tell the man that only he can stand. He tells me that they are "co-coaches." I say they can be whatever they want, but for this game he is the head coach and only he can stand.

Next time down the court, I am the lead, and I see she is standing and coaching. I call a T on her -- as the assistant standing. When I get to the table, my partner and the man greet me. The man says that she is the head coach today and she will stand. He said he explained that to me when I talked to him earlier...I said that he had taken every action possible to prove he was the head coach and for this game, he was the head coach. My partner called me aside and asked me to reconsider the T. Now I feel stuck. The rule, case book and point of emphasis all back me. She was not saying a word to me...she was coaching the players. But now I am told that she is the head coach and I can't penalize a head coach for coaching from the coaching box. So I take the T back. The home coach doesn't like it, but he accepts the explanation....the T was for the assistant standing, but since she is not the assistant, she is acting within the rules.

At halftime, my partner gave me the "Don't go looking for trouble" talk. He may have been Old School for all I know. because he said exactly what OS said (if they are not screaming at you, ignore them...no matter where they are standing.) When I had that team a few weeks later, the man made a point of coming up to me during warmups and saying he would be sitting and she would be the head coach for the game ... but he also gave me the, "No one else has said a thing to us all year" line.

[johnnyrao]

Our District Director this past season (HS, NFHS rules) made it clear that the state directed that the Head Coach must attend the pre-game conference. No questions asked. I know that there could be many circumstances that may come up to adjust this. I did not have any, but I can see some arising. For instance, I had to wait for the book to arrive one night because the coach left it home and his wife was on the way with it. Maybe the coach is single and had to go himself/herself to get it, or a car breaks down, etc. I think common sense prevails here. Things happen. However, if the head coach is in the gym and has no other reason, we are NOT ALLOWED to do the pre-game conference without him/her. I waited on more than one occasion for a head coach to come out of the locker room, bathroom, stands, etc. By doing this, we all know who the HC is and who can stand in the coaches box.

[deecee]

i would have done it different bay but what you did is fine by the books.

after he responded with "co-coaches" I would mention its his choice if they both stand or alternate who stands and coaches and it will be the opposing captain's choice who will shoot the 2 free throws.

now he knows what the penalty will be and its entirely up to him and his "co-coach" where it goes from there. now if trouble comes, it found you not the other way around. btw I can see where your partner was coming from however he was wrong on the time and place. your T was warranted and that should have been a locker room discussion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

after he responded with "co-coaches" I would mention its his choice if they both stand or alternate who stands and coaches and it will be the opposing captain's choice who will shoot the 2 free throws.

Uh, nope. No alternating. They get to choose, perhaps, but they have to stick with that choice. I'm not having prairie dog coaches.

[deecee]

you misunderstood -- its their choice how they want to act. I cannot make them both not stand or each alternate who stands and therefore. Either way they will be penalized on their actions after they have been explicitly warned.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Girls varsity game early this season. Visitors have two coaches -- a man and a woman. Every action tells me he is the head coach and she is the assistant. We do the pregame with the coaches and he attends; as the the players are introduced, he shakes their hands; first time out by V and he calls it A minute later I see both two coaches standing ... one towards the table; the other at the other end of the bench. At the next dead ball, I tell the man that only he can stand. He tells me that they are "co-coaches." I say they can be whatever they want, but for this game he is the head coach and only he can stand.

Next time down the court, I am the lead, and I see she is standing and coaching. I call a T on her -- as the assistant standing. When I get to the table, my partner and the man greet me. The man says that she is the head coach today and she will stand. He said he explained that to me when I talked to him earlier...I said that he had taken every action possible to prove he was the head coach and for this game, he was the head coach. My partner called me aside and asked me to reconsider the T. Now I feel stuck. The rule, case book and point of emphasis all back me. She was not saying a word to me...she was coaching the players. But now I am told that she is the head coach and I can't penalize a head coach for coaching from the coaching box. So I take the T back. The home coach doesn't like it, but he accepts the explanation....the T was for the assistant standing, but since she is not the assistant, she is acting within the rules.

At halftime, my partner gave me the "Don't go looking for trouble" talk. He may have been Old School for all I know. because he said exactly what OS said (if they are not screaming at you, ignore them...no matter where they are standing.) When I had that team a few weeks later, the man made a point of coming up to me during warmups and saying he would be sitting and she would be the head coach for the game ... but he also gave me the, "No one else has said a thing to us all year" line.

That's exactly why the Officials Manual tells you that you should verify before the game exactly who the head coach actually is. It saves any confusion later on in the game.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's exactly why the Officials Manual tells you that you should verify before the game exactly who the head coach actually is. It saves any confusion later on in the game.

Verify is not in my manual. But it certainly became SOP for the rest of the season.

Interesting aside....this league has three teams with "co-coaches" but this is the only team that acted this way. The other teams told us -- before we asked -- who was the HC for the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Verify is not in my manual. But it certainly became SOP for the rest of the season.

Manual--Pre-game duties of the R- 105(j) on p.17.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's exactly why the Officials Manual tells you that you should verify before the game exactly who the head coach actually is. It saves any confusion later on in the game.

Exactly! In my area of the country, the R will introduce himself to both head coaches after he/she has checked the books at the 10 minute mark before the game. At that point in time, not only are you identifying the HC, but you also remind/review the usage of the coaching box. I also use this time to ask the coaches to use a signal for a time out request as well as requesting for a time out verbally. I also make coaches aware of any unusual gym circumstances such as a gym with little or no sideline. If you feel so inclined, this is an opportunity to set the ground rules for coach/ref communication during the game. These few moments can help game management later on.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Exactly! In my area of the country, the R will introduce himself to both head coaches after he/she has checked the books at the 10 minute mark before the game. At that point in time, not only are you identifying the HC, but you also remind/review the usage of the coaching box. I also use this time to ask the coaches to use a signal for a time out request as well as requesting for a time out verbally. I also make coaches aware of any unusual gym circumstances such as a gym with little or no sideline. If you feel so inclined, this is an opportunity to set the ground rules for coach/ref communication during the game. These few moments can help game management later on.

Seriously? You really do all of that in your pregame? I could see if you are in an old gym that has a restraining line of discussing its usage but I'm not gonna spend that time talking about that or reminding them of the usage of the coaching box.

If the AC comes to the meeting and says, the HC is stuck in traffic or got stuck at work and is on his way - are you going to say he can't coach tonight? I'm not.

In this case - whack the guy for addressing the official in a disrespectful manner and move on.