Indirect on head coach or not?

[Fifth And Goal]

Had this sitch first few weeks of the season. JV boys game, and my partner and I have already spoken to both head coaches about having subs wait at the X until one of us beckons them into the game.

I have a shooting foul at lead and go to report the foul, and I notice a sub at the table. After I report the foul, the timer blows the horn and the sub comes running all the way down to the lane, even though no one has beckoned him and we still have yet to shoot a FT. So, I whistle the overanxious player for a T under the provisions of 10-2.

My question is, does the head coach also get an indirect under the provisions of 10-2? Not clear in the rules or in the T chart at the end of rule 10. Seems to me that the player is still bench personel until somebody beckons him into the game.

Any definitive guidance out there?

Peace,
Fifth

[rainmaker]

I've never called a T for this, so I don't know the rule. Part of my reporting a foul is to put my hand up in a "stop sign" signal to the players at the table and say, "Wait." I do this everytime, and I make sure they see me everytime. Any time I see players starting to run onto the floor without being beckoned, I sprint into their visual field, and shoo them back, "Wait please! Not yet!" I guess this belongs equally in the "preventive officiating" thread.

[Jurassic Referee]

The definitive guidance is rule 10-2PENALTY. It's a "T" on the player and no indirect "T" to the coach.

Personally, I warn on these.

[Back In The Saddle]

There is nothing quite like having to walk all the way back to the X and wait for a free-throw to dampen a player's enthusiasm for coming in without being beckoned. I would keep the T in my pocket to use if it became a bigger problem.

[davidw]

Ditto on all of Juulie's comments. Definite warn, definite prevent bigtime.

[Camron Rust]

Had a freshman game last Thursday. The players just didn't seem to understand. Intercept/Warning 1. Intercept/Warning 2. Intercept/Warning 3....

After several more warnings and no change in behavior, there was a player who ignored my interecept and warning and just kept going right past me (I'm not going to physically restrain a kid on this). I decided to call the T. Caught a lot of moaning and whining from the parents and the coach. Guess what...not one more player did it for the rest of the game. They even helped each other out with reminders. I'll bet it will stick with most of them too.

The most common complaints were "it's only a freshman game" or couldn't you have warned them. I posed a question to the coach: How many times? And, if they don't learn it now, when?

I agree that anything less than HS should be very tolerant but at some point, the point has to be made. By the time they're at varisty, they should know this so it should never happen.

[davidw]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Had a freshman game last Thursday. The players just didn't seem to understand. Intercept/Warning 1. Intercept/Warning 2. Intercept/Warning 3....

After several more warnings and no change in behavior, there was a player who ignored my interecept and warning and just kept going right past me (I'm not going to physically restrain a kid on this). I decided to call the T. Caught a lot of moaning and whining from the parents and the coach. Guess what...not one more player did it for the rest of the game. They even helped each other out with reminders. I'll bet it will stick with most of them too.

The most common complaints were "it's only a freshman game" or couldn't you have warned them. I posed a question to the coach: How many times? And, if they don't learn it now, when?

I agree that anything less than HS should be very tolerant but at some point, the point has to be made. By the time they're at varisty, they should know this so it should never happen.

And almost never does, except when the games a blow out and in comes those players who rarely get in--that is when you'll usually see it happen.

[Mark Padgett]

Next time this happens, go up to the player and ask him if you told him it was OK to come in. When he says no, ask him if your partner told him it was OK to come in. When he says no again, ask him what the heck is he doing in, then.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Had a freshman game last Thursday. The players just didn't seem to understand. Intercept/Warning 1. Intercept/Warning 2. Intercept/Warning 3....

After several more warnings and no change in behavior, there was a player who ignored my interecept and warning and just kept going right past me (I'm not going to physically restrain a kid on this). I decided to call the T. Caught a lot of moaning and whining from the parents and the coach. Guess what...not one more player did it for the rest of the game. They even helped each other out with reminders. I'll bet it will stick with most of them too.

The most common complaints were "it's only a freshman game" or couldn't you have warned them. I posed a question to the coach: How many times? And, if they don't learn it now, when?

I agree that anything less than HS should be very tolerant but at some point, the point has to be made. By the time they're at varisty, they should know this so it should never happen.

My Daddy said Don't look for trouble cause trouble will find you. Why are you looking for trouble?

[Ref Daddy]

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...7&pagenumber=1

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Fifth And Goal
Not clear in the rules or in the T chart at the end of rule 10.

It is crystal clear that this is NOT charged indirectly to the head coach from the chart on page 73 of the Rules Book.
Third box down under "Type Foul" is "Substitutes: Entering court; no report; not beckoned (10-2)" Notice that the box on the far right of that line under "Head Coach Assessed" is empty.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The definitive guidance is rule 10-2PENALTY. It's a "T" on the player and no indirect "T" to the coach.

Personally, I warn on these.

I agree...but, had an interesting one the other night.

Had a tight V boys game. Visiting team undefeated. Visiting team already had one player running in without being beckoned and who had reported in after the first horn during a TO.

We removed the player the first time and told him to wait untill beckoned during the next dead ball.

Less than 10 seconds left in the game...Home team drains a 3 pt. goal to tie the game. Visiting team makes a quick thorw-in and scores 2 pts. Gym is going crazy...can't hear whistles...I figured Home team would want a TO...so I watched him after the made basket and watched the clock at the same time...clock was at 2.8 when request was made after the basket...clock ran down to .6...we re-set to 2.8 seconds and game the Home team a TO.

As we are getting ready to inbound the ball at the endline of the Visiting team's basket...the scorer's table alerted me that the visiting team player had checked in after the first horn. He was not beckoned, he just went out on the court when the TO ended.

This was a situation in which the Home team would have loved for us to call the T....down by 2...and an opportunity to go to the line to tie.

The Home team coach said, "Hey, that's a T"...I felt kind of bad when I shook my head and told the player to go back...but, I would have done the same for him.
We didn't give a T the first time...and I didn't feel right giving a T in this important situation...stayed consistant.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude

I agree...but, had an interesting one the other night.

Had a tight V boys game. Visiting team undefeated. Visiting team already had one player running in without being beckoned and who had reported in after the first horn during a TO.

We removed the player the first time and told him to wait untill beckoned during the next dead ball.

Less than 10 seconds left in the game...Home team drains a 3 pt. goal to tie the game. Visiting team makes a quick thorw-in and scores 2 pts. Gym is going crazy...can't hear whistles...I figured Home team would want a TO...so I watched him after the made basket and watched the clock at the same time...clock was at 2.8 when request was made after the basket...clock ran down to .6...we re-set to 2.8 seconds and game the Home team a TO.

As we are getting ready to inbound the ball at the endline of the Visiting team's basket...the scorer's table alerted me that the visiting team player had checked in after the first horn. He was not beckoned, he just went out on the court when the TO ended.

This was a situation in which the Home team would have loved for us to call the T....down by 2...and an opportunity to go to the line to tie.

The Home team coach said, "Hey, that's a T"...I felt kind of bad when I shook my head and told the player to go back...but, I would have done the same for him.
We didn't give a T the first time...and I didn't feel right giving a T in this important situation...stayed consistant.

I think you made the right choice. Gotta wonder if table would have said anything if the home team had done it...

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I think you made the right choice. Gotta wonder if table would have said anything if the home team had done it...

Actually, I believe that he did it incorrectly BOTH times, and there is a saying that two wrongs don't make a right.
In fact, if he had correctly called the T the first time it happened, the second one at crunch time probably wouldn't have occurred.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Actually, I believe that he did it incorrectly BOTH times, and there is a saying that two wrongs don't make a right.
In fact, if he had correctly called the T the first time it happened, the second one at crunch time probably wouldn't have occurred.

You are probably right about the second one not happening at crunch time.
But I gotta ask ya...do you T up every sub that runs in without being beckoned?
If so...you are going to be giving a T at almost every game around these parts.
That's a battle I'm not going to fight...go to war if you must...and you do have the rules to back you...but I'll stay consistant with what we do around here...warn and send them back to the bench.