Rule 4-40 - Screen [and forum searches?]

[jkjenning]

Apparently when the FAQ says you can search for words it actually excludes strings like "4-40"... (or 4-39, which is what the definition for Screen used to be) Why doesn't it just allow a pure character string search?

Originally Posted by From the FAQ

You can search for posts based on username, word(s) in the post or just in the subject, by date, and only in particular forums.

Anyway, one of the rules I wanted to review over the summer is 4-40, screening. There are no case book examples in the rule books I have and the rule seems clear enough. For discussion, though, the rule does not always require contact before a screen is considered illegal. For example, what is seen frequently is A1 screening from the backside and he/she (usually she, it seems) does not stop short of contact with B1... however, if A1 does stop short of contact with B1's backside I would normally not call the illegal screen unless B1 subsequently collides with the screener. In contrast, if A1 sets a screen on a moving B1 without giving the required time/distance and B1 avoids contact... well, here I would tend to call the illegal screen even without appreciable contact.

If A1's screen is set too close and B1 turns to navigate around A1 without significant contact, would most of you consider this a no call? The illegal screen actually happens before B1 makes any move and the screen may easily alter the path taken, so I'm thinking this is something I should call tighter - i.e. call the backside, non-contact, illegal screen once it is set, without waiting for any subsequent contact because any evasive maneuver B1 has to make is an advantage team A gains from the illegal screen.

Anyone have older [pre 2003-04] rule books which include Case references for screens? Am I overlooking an POE?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

For discussion, though, the rule does not always require contact before a screen is considered illegal. ... so I'm thinking this is something I should call tighter[/U] - i.e. call the backside, non-contact, illegal screen once it is set, without waiting for any subsequent contact because any evasive maneuver B1 has to make is an advantage team A gains from the illegal screen.

While what you describe may be an "illegal screen," in order to have a foul here, you must have CONTACT.

[bannind]

I would love to hear the forums thoughts on this topic as it came up during a JC pregame earlier this year.

My thoughts, for they are worth, follow the no-contact/no-foul thought process. However, I can see where the book is coming from, slightly. I just can't bring myself to calling a screen, to where the other individual makes a choice to avoid contact. And that is what I told my lead, I could not bring myself to mirroring his call if that happened. I would think calling an illegal screen without contact, would just be asking for a coach to go nuts. As officials we already have to make enough judgement calls with advantage/disadvantage situations.

Chime in people..

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

While what you describe may be an "illegal screen," in order to have a foul here, you must have CONTACT.

I disagree. The rule defines an illegal screen from behind as something which depends on giving ample opportunity to avoid contact - by definition, such a screen may be illegal with or without contact.
4-40-4: When screening a station opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact. ...in other words, the screen is illegal if it does not allow one normal step backward - without a case play demonstrating that contact is required, I say the screen is illegal simply based on how it is set up.

[Adam]

jkjenning; where do the rules prescribe a penalty for an "illegal screen?"
You can search rule 9 all day long, and you won't find a penalty for a violation called "illegal screen." In rule 10, you find it.
10-6-3 tells what a screener cannot do, and the proceeds to say, "If the screener violates any of these provisions and contact results, he/she has committed a personal foul."

Bottom line, contact is necessary for a personal foul, and we don't need a case play or POE from the Fed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Anyway, one of the rules I wanted to review over the summer is 4-40, screening. There are no case book examples in the rule books I have and the rule seems clear enough.

There are in the ones I have. See case book plays 10.6.3SitA, SitB, SitC, & SitD.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

For discussion, though, the rule does not always require contact before a screen is considered illegal.

Are you serious? You sureasheck can't have an illegal screen without contact. You can't have ANY personal foul without contact. The very definition of a personal foul in rule 4-19-1 says that illegal contact MUST be present. That's an absolute rules basic. Your statement above is completely wrong.

[Adam]

The thing to remember is an illegal screen may be illegal without contact, but it can't be penalized until contact occurs.
Similarly, illegal contact doesn't become a foul until there's an advantage or displacement. Just because it's "illegal" doesn't, by itself, mean it's a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The thing to remember is an illegal screen may be illegal without contact, but it can't be penalized until contact occurs.

Wrong language imo. Any screen is nothing until contact occurs. At the point of contact, you then determine whether the screen is legal or not. No contact---->legal screen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

I disagree. The rule defines an illegal screen from behind as something which depends on giving ample opportunity to avoid contact - by definition, such a screen may be illegal with or without contact.
4-40-4: When screening a station opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact. ...in other words, the screen is illegal if it does not allow one normal step backward - without a case play demonstrating that contact is required, I say the screen is illegal simply based on how it is set up.

Read rule 4-19-1. You can't have ANY personal foul without contact. That is an absolute rules basic, jk. Aamof, they put it down in the rule book as being a basic. Look on p.74--Basketball Rules Fundamentals. Fundamental #10 says "Personal fouls ALWAYS involve ILLEGAL CONTACT and occur during a live ball, except a common foul by or on an airborne shooter".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

I disagree. The rule defines an illegal screen from behind as something which depends on giving ample opportunity to avoid contact - by definition, such a screen may be illegal with or without contact.
4-40-4: When screening a station opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact. ...in other words, the screen is illegal if it does not allow one normal step backward - without a case play demonstrating that contact is required, I say the screen is illegal simply based on how it is set up.

The rule is saying that if a player sets such a screen and IF there is contact, the screener is responsible for any illegal contact. NO contact, NO foul.

MTD, Sr.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

I disagree. The rule defines an illegal screen from behind as something which depends on giving ample opportunity to avoid contact - by definition, such a screen may be illegal with or without contact.
4-40-4: When screening a station opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact. ...in other words, the screen is illegal if it does not allow one normal step backward - without a case play demonstrating that contact is required, I say the screen is illegal simply based on how it is set up.

What is the hand and arm signal for an illegal screen without contact?

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The thing to remember is an illegal screen may be illegal without contact, but it can't be penalized until contact occurs.
Similarly, illegal contact doesn't become a foul until there's an advantage or displacement. Just because it's "illegal" doesn't, by itself, mean it's a foul.

Thanks for setting me straight with all the replies - all very appreciated. Since 4-40 defines a legal screen, any screen violating that definition is illegal, so a screen from the backside without contact would be illegal.

This means that players should really be aware of the need to make contact with an illegal screener rather than worm their way around them... I guess that's similar to a shooter who contorts to shoot around a defender whose arms are extended over the shooter's space - the shooter should be aware of the foul opportunity and make sure to create contact on the shot.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

This means that players should really be aware of the need to make contact with an illegal screener rather than worm their way around them.

That is the only way they are going to get a foul IF the official knows the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Since 4-40 defines a legal screen, any screen violating that definition is illegal, so a screen from the backside without contact would be illegal.

That's completely wrong again. Any screen from the backside without contact is a legal screen. That's not semantics either. That's the rules!