Over and Back - HS vs College

[tw1ns]

Just watched the UMass vs St. Louis game hi-lites and late in the game there was an over and back call where the guy was in the backcourt and his foot crossed the line and then he went back and got called for it...
correct me if I am wrong but in HS, all three points - ball and both feet have to be across to be considered in the Front Court...different for College...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tw1ns

Just watched the UMass vs St. Louis game hi-lites and late in the game there was an over and back call where the guy was in the backcourt and his foot crossed the line and then he went back and got called for it...
correct me if I am wrong but in HS, all three points - ball and both feet have to be across to be considered in the Front Court...different for College...

Same rule under NFHS and NCAA rules. The 3-point rule only applies to a dribbler entering the front court.

[bannind]

If I remember from the highlight - both feet were over in the front court establishing himself, as a player, as being in the front court. Then by the natural movement of heading back to help with the ball pressure, he jumped from the front court, caught the ball and landed in the back court. It was a slight lapse in judgement on his part and the correct call either in HS or college. The 3 points rule that you are refering too concerns the player possessing the ball.

Damnit - too slow on the reply. That is what I get for hitting rewind on the Tivo to make sure I saw the play properly

[tw1ns]

unless my eyes are bad, there was nooooo way that the guy had both feet across the line...just one foot and i dont think the ball had even crossed...I think he blew the call...

[bannind]

I believe that Jurassic and I are on the same page here and we are not referencing a 3 point attempt. The three points of contact rule you are thinking of, only affects the ball handler. A player moving without the ball has established himself in the front court by having both feet in the front court, which #25 did in this case. From what I have seen it was the right call.

[tw1ns]

I am on the same page as you - I think we are looking at different plays - this was very late in the game...
this guy was dribbling in the backcourt and got pressured at midcourt, but, to me, it looked like his foot, singular, touched the line and he started back..when he got called for it...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tw1ns

unless my eyes are bad, there was nooooo way that the guy had both feet across the line...just one foot and i dont think the ball had even crossed...I think he blew the call...

Only when a player is dribbling from the back court to the front court does the "three point" concept come into play. If a player is just standing there, with or without the ball, then only one foot across is necessary as long as the other foot is not touching.
Consider this play:
A1 dribbling the ball in his back court, stops with one foot in the FC and one in the BC. He picks up his dribble. Now, he picks up his foot that was in the BC and pivots it to another spot in the BC. This is a violation.
Or A1 passes the ball to A2, who was standing with one foot in the FC and one in the BC. Before jumping to catch the ball, he lifts the BC foot off the floor and jumps of the foot in the FC. This is also a violation.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by bannind

I believe that Jurassic and I are on the same page here and we are not referencing a 3 point attempt. The three points of contact rule you are thinking of, only affects the ball handler. A player moving without the ball has established himself in the front court by having both feet in the front court, which #25 did in this case. From what I have seen it was the right call.

I agree. The ball handler needs 3. When established in the front court as player and lets say you have one foot in the back and one in the front court. Backcourt Violation. If go to the backcourt and both feet are there and receive a pass there its legal. I sure we all know that though.

[tw1ns]

Uff Da!!!
Consider the play as I told it....
The guy is continuously dribbling, not standing, not receiving, he is in posession of the ball in the backcourt heading to the frontcourt....
when ONE foot crosses the mid-court line - to me it only looked like 1/2 a foot - he lifts the foot and proceeds back into the backcourt...
I got my answer - same in College as in HS...
the call was blown....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tw1ns

Uff Da!!!
Consider the play as I told it....
The guy is continuously dribbling, not standing, not receiving, he is in posession of the ball in the backcourt heading to the frontcourt....
when ONE foot crosses the mid-court line - to me it only looked like 1/2 a foot - he lifts the foot and proceeds back into the backcourt...
I got my answer - same in College as in HS...
the call was blown....

Take it easy, your OP was vague and didn't mention that he was dribbling.

[bannind]

After watching the ESPN highlights, it looks like he is well over the division line.. Just to see what the UMass fans thought, who would be complaining the most if there was a kicked call, no one on their fan boards are complaining about the call.

Maybe I am watching different video, but it looked like an easy violation, called correctly.

[tw1ns]

If I was really frustrated I would said something worse!!!
My bad for leaving out a few key words like - posession and dribbling!!!!
Won't happen again!!!
Since I got you guys on the line and I dont want to put this as a title thread -
what are your guys opinions on being objective as a official and coach at the same time?
One of my partners has been an Asst. Varsity coach and officiating games durning the same year...
by the way - he is working the State Tourney this year...

[tw1ns]

and by the way - -it was St. Louis that got called for the violation - with 33 secs left on the clock...

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bannind

I believe that Jurassic and I are on the same page here and we are not referencing a 3 point attempt. The three points of contact rule you are thinking of, only affects the ball handler.

The three points of contact rule you are thinking of, only affects the DRIBBLER.

It does not apply to a player who is HOLDING the ball.

Originally Posted by TRef21

I agree. The ball handler needs 3. When established in the front court as player and lets say you have one foot in the back and one in the front court. Backcourt Violation. If go to the backcourt and both feet are there and receive a pass there its legal. I sure we all know that though.

NOT true. If you are touching the BC at all, you are in the BC. It makes no difference if you're straddling the line, you are in the BC.

[bannind]

You are correct that I was mistaken on the team.

But I did have the number of the player who committed the violation in the 5th post of this thread. But if we want to be technical the timing of the violation - it occured at 18.1 seconds left in the OT. At 33 seconds left in OT - Mass player #33 James Life hit the 3 to bring it within 2 points.