Odd foul situation

[howie719]

I'm the lead on 2 whistle. A1 drives into lane and is fouled while shooting from behind on B1. B2 has established a legal guarding position in the general area A1 is headed. This is the tricky part. It was my contentsion that the contact by B1 diverted A1 into B2 path. I no called this contact and we went with 2 at the line. It was a pretty decent collision as well. As expected the defensive coach called time out to ask me about the contact. He didn't like my explanation, but understood what I was saying. Any thoughts on how else this could have been handled. I.E. go with the false double foul, multiple foul because B's teammate caused the collision, or false double foul.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by howie719

I'm the lead on 2 whistle. A1 drives into lane and is fouled while shooting from behind on B1. B2 has established a legal guarding position in the general area A1 is headed. This is the tricky part. It was my contentsion that the contact by B1 diverted A1 into B2 path. I no called this contact and we went with 2 at the line. It was a pretty decent collision as well. As expected the defensive coach called time out to ask me about the contact. He didn't like my explanation, but understood what I was saying. Any thoughts on how else this could have been handled. I.E. go with the false double foul, multiple foul because B's teammate caused the collision, or false double foul.

Was A1 on the ground when fouled?...in that case the play is dead on the foul by B1 and there couldn't be anything else....If A1 is airborne then you may be able to have the false double foul (I think that the terminology, no rule book handy)...... I'd try to get out of there either way with only 1 if possible......especially if you deem that A1 was displaced into B2.....

Sounds like you did pretty good to me, regardless if A1 was airborne or not.

If B1 fouls and B2 doesn't have lgp and blocks on an airborne shooter you'd have a multiple foul, correct? (once again, no rule book handy) I'd try to get out of there with 1 call as well, so why not do that in your situation

[howie719]

A1 was airborne an in the act of shooting when fouled by B1. Then collided with B2. However, in my OP I deemed that the collision was helped by the fact B1 diverted A1 just enough in the air to cause the collision.

[mick]

Originally Posted by howie719

I'm the lead on 2 whistle. A1 drives into lane and is fouled while shooting from behind on B1. B2 has established a legal guarding position in the general area A1 is headed. This is the tricky part. It was my contentsion that the contact by B1 diverted A1 into B2 path. I no called this contact and we went with 2 at the line. It was a pretty decent collision as well. As expected the defensive coach called time out to ask me about the contact. He didn't like my explanation, but understood what I was saying. Any thoughts on how else this could have been handled. I.E. go with the false double foul, multiple foul because B's teammate caused the collision, or false double foul.

Makes sense to me, howie719.
Foul on B1 who caused A1 to contact B2. Shoot two and no foul charged to A1.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by mick

Makes sense to me, howie719.
Foul on B1 who caused A1 to contact B2. Shoot two and no foul charged to A1.

Agree here also...I think I read some past posts with this and similar scenarios....some might differ with me but in both situations I previously posted I'm going to try and get out of there with one foul even though the rules might allow something else....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

Was A1 on the ground when fouled?...in that case the play is dead on the foul by B1 and there couldn't be anything else....If A1 is airborne then you may be able to have the false double foul (I think that the terminology, no rule book handy)......

Just to pick a nit, but it doesn't matter if A1 was on the floor or not. If he's started his shooting motion, particularly on a layup, he can still be on the floor and still get fouled on a shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just to pick a nit, but it doesn't matter if A1 was on the floor or not. If he's started his shooting motion, particularly on a layup, he can still be on the floor and still get fouled on a shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant.

I'll have to have you elaborate...the "on the floor" comment was to clarify whether the principles of an "airborne" shooter would be involved in the play or not....are we agreed that we'd treat an airborne shooter in this situation differently than one that is on the ground but in the act of shooting?

I think I know what you mean, you're correct in that the foul wouldn't kill the act of shooting but if A1 is on the floor we couldn't have the second foul, a charge against A1 after the shot if B2 had LGP.

[Old School]

Another thing you could have told the coach which is supported by rule is to ignore the 2nd foul unless intentional. The play is dead on the first whistle shooting foul. The 2nd foul occurred after the whistle and is deem a dead ball foul which is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. I would always try to keep things simple. Just makes your job a lot easier as an official.

[Adam]

I don't think it matters. The only thing that might matter is whether B2 gained LGP before A1 last left his feet prior to contact between those two.
If the act of shooting has begun, the shooter can become airborne even after the foul, and then he is protected until he lands. So, you could have the following order of events:
1. Shooting motion begins by A1.
2. B1 fouls A1 from behind.
3. A1 jumps off his last foot for the layup he began before the foul.
4. A1 crashes into B2, creating a block/charge situation that could be called based on whether B2 gained position prior to A1's takeoff.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't think it matters. The only thing that might matter is whether B2 gained LGP before A1 last left his feet prior to contact between those two.
If the act of shooting has begun, the shooter can become airborne even after the foul, and then he is protected until he lands. So, you could have the following order of events:
1. Shooting motion begins by A1.
2. B1 fouls A1 from behind.
3. A1 jumps off his last foot for the layup he began before the foul.
4. A1 crashes into B2, creating a block/charge situation that could be called based on whether B2 gained position prior to A1's takeoff.

I have a hard time with that one....Yes, you'll let A1 continue his shooting motion, but I don't think you can become an airborne player after the whistle has already blown for a foul that is occuring on the floor before that actual shot has taken place....I don't disagree with your description, but in my opinion a foul on an airborne player, that player needs to be airborne when the foul occurs.

I'm getting ready leave for a game with two other guys...we'll discuss and case book/rule book it on the way....I'll come back on tomorrow with what we got....Good point....thanks

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Another thing you could have told the coach which is supported by rule is to ignore the 2nd foul unless intentional. The play is dead on the first whistle shooting foul. The 2nd foul occurred after the whistle and is deem a dead ball foul which is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. I would always try to keep things simple. Just makes your job a lot easier as an official.

By rule. You're wrong. If the shooter becomes airborne before the ball is dead, the ball does not then become dead until the shooter lands. If the shooting motion has started before the foul, then the ball does not become dead on whistle.
You try telling the coach your nonsense above, and he's going to rightly wonder why you counted the basket.
The only way not to call the PC on A1 is if you determine B1's foul illegally directed A1 into B2.

[mick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
Another thing you could have told the coach which is supported by rule is to ignore the 2nd foul unless intentional. The play is dead on the first whistle shooting foul. The 2nd foul occurred after the whistle and is deem a dead ball foul which is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. I would always try to keep things simple. Just makes your job a lot easier as an official.

I envisioned the whistle after both bumps.

Bump~bump, .......Tweet! You must've heard Bump. Tweet! Bump.
My whistle is too slow for that.

[howie719]

Old school. The ball doesn't become dead until the shooter returns to the floor. Unless I misunderstood you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I have a hard time with that one....Yes, you'll let A1 continue his shooting motion, but I don't think you can become an airborne player after the whistle has already blown for a foul that is occuring on the floor before that actual shot has taken place....

Of course you can -- you're allowed to continue the shooting motion. But, what does it matter, if A1 is moving forward as part of his shot, gets fouled, and continues forward, he could (in theory) charge into B2 who had LGP. Heck, there are case plays on this. And, there are case plays on multiple fouls, too (I think).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Of course you can -- you're allowed to continue the shooting motion. But, what does it matter, if A1 is moving forward as part of his shot, gets fouled, and continues forward, he could (in theory) charge into B2 who had LGP. Heck, there are case plays on this. And, there are case plays on multiple fouls, too (I think).

Yup, case book play 4.19.9SitA is one. Play 6.7SitC is another. They're both relevant.

In 6.7SitC, the foul occurred on the shooter(or a teammate) before the foul was in flight. The ball remains live until the shot is made or missed or.....casebook play 4.19.9SitA happens. In 4.19.9SitA, you have a foul on the shooter, then the shooter charging after that foul. Ruling is a false double foul. The foul on the shooter does not cause the ball to become dead. The foul by the shooter is a PC foul that does cause the ball to become dead and no goal can be scored. The shooter gets 2 FT's with no one on the lanes. After the last FT, team B gets the ball OOB at the closest spot to the PC foul on the shooter for a designated spot throw-in.