First Time Varsity coach

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are the one ranting about it. I was telling a story, you are trying to make a value judgment on all the contents of the story. I am perfectly happy with what I said. Are you as secure in the position that others might be taking against you?

Anything you want to lecture to me about?

Peace

The "positions that others might be taking against" me? What are you talking about? One person directly disagreed with me, Dan_ref. I didn't know battle lines were being drawn. You need to calm down a bit. I know the weather is bad and everything, but geez.

I'll repeat: I disagreed with something you said. I stated why I disagreed. That's it. You're the one coming here typing nonsense like "hot and bothered" (exaggeration) and "stick up your behind" (rude) and "I am glad that you think you military dealings are the only thing important to everyone on this board" (where you got this I don't know ) and "to a country that often lets people in your situation down" (pertinent to this conversation? ).

Let it go! Wooo-saa, Wooo-saa

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well, if this question is open to everyone...Buffalo isn't considered part of the east coast...

Well maybe we should take a poll on both issues and see what everyone thinks.

Peace

[deecee]

MEOW ...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The "positions that others might be taking against" me? What are you talking about? One person directly disagreed with me, Dan_ref. I didn't know battle lines were being drawn. You need to calm down a bit. I know the weather is bad and everything, but geez.

We really have not gotten over being in the military. We are talking about battle lines us against me mentality is being thrown out all over the place. (It is called sarcasm).

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'll repeat: I disagreed with something you said. I stated why I disagreed. That's it. You're the one coming here typing nonsense like "hot and bothered" (exaggeration) and "stick up your behind" (rude) and "I am glad that you think you military dealings are the only thing important to everyone on this board" (where you got this I don't know ) and "to a country that often lets people in your situation down" (pertinent to this conversation? ).

I used the "hot and bothered back" on the first page from what I recall. I do not recall saying anything like that since. Also being hot and bothered was my observation to something you seemed to be the only person having a problem with. Also that was a sarcastic comment meant to bring more levity to this discussion. I tend to have a very dry sense of humor and I take things like this not very seriously. Then you questioned my motives for even posting what I characterized as a funny story. I have even said that I respect your position, even though I do not agree with it. What else do you want me to say? You are not the guru of every thing officiating. I can disagree with something you say. I am sure I will do it again on a completely different topic if you give it a chance.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Let it go! Wooo-saa, Wooo-saa

You are the one that keeps repeating the same phrases over and over again that I only said once and I need to get over it? Interesesting.

Peace

[SMEngmann]

First, I want to clarify the comments that I made. I will not permit arguing, nor will I argue with an assistant coach, and I have little tolerance with arguing from head coaches. I will also not allow assistant coaches to continually question me. My argument, though, is that in my experience, we as officials are too dismissive of assistant coaches immediately, and that could create an unwanted air of officiousness and it could cut off future avenues. For instance, if an assistant says something like "can you watch 44's screens for me" during a timeout, I will likely respond politely with, "sure" or "I'll give it a look." The attitude, and maybe I'm wrong, that I get from a lot of officials, is that their response would be more along the lines of, "I don't talk to assistant coaches," or "He's the only one that does the talking here (referring to HC)." I think that mentality is counter-productive. I will not, though allow constant questioning or discussion from assistant coaches. I don't work D1 basketball, but in the D1 games that I have watched, there is a good amount of interaction between the assistants and the officials, particularly during timeouts, and not once have I seen the officials rebuff them simply because they are assistants.

JRut, in terms of your baseball argument, I do not umpire baseball, so I can't comment on that, nor do I think you can really equate the two sports. However, the point that you made referred to an assistant coach coming out to argue, which, from my point of view is different than say, if there was a play at 1st base and the first base coach, who is right there, started to dispute the call (before the HC eventually came out). Do you immediately dump the 1st base coach just for questioning your call?

Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this, but I just think assistant coaches can be valuable tools for us in terms of game management, and I don't think that dismissing them immediately just because they're assistants is prudent.

[deecee]

SME -- I agree and I treat every player and table crew and person in general with the same amount of respect they afford me.

[mick]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this, but I just think assistant coaches can be valuable tools for us in terms of game management, and I don't think that dismissing them immediately just because they're assistants is prudent.

I use assistant coaches if they are nice.
...Shake hands with 'em and everything before the game just like they are regular people.
Sometimes they are the only ones looking when I tell 'em, "First horn."
Sometimes I answer their questions during a dead ball walk-by.
Sometimes I ask them to remind the head coach where the box is.

They don't have poison ivy or sumthin', ... do they?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

First, I want to clarify the comments that I made. I will not permit arguing, nor will I argue with an assistant coach, and I have little tolerance with arguing from head coaches. I will also not allow assistant coaches to continually question me. My argument, though, is that in my experience, we as officials are too dismissive of assistant coaches immediately, and that could create an unwanted air of officiousness and it could cut off future avenues. For instance, if an assistant says something like "can you watch 44's screens for me" during a timeout, I will likely respond politely with, "sure" or "I'll give it a look." The attitude, and maybe I'm wrong, that I get from a lot of officials, is that their response would be more along the lines of, "I don't talk to assistant coaches," or "He's the only one that does the talking here (referring to HC)." I think that mentality is counter-productive. I will not, though allow constant questioning or discussion from assistant coaches.

Then we are just going to have to disagree. Also understand that if that works for you that is OK with me. I am telling you that that if you allow an AC to dictate to you what you are doing wrong, they will take it up a notch (sorry Emeril ) when they really feel you need to be heard. Also I did not T the coach or advocate T'ing the coach. I wanted the assistant to know his head coach was not complaining directly to me and I had already addressed a similar issue with him, I am not given multiple answers to the very same issue over and over again to different people. If you want to answer about a situation to 3 or 4 different people, that is your right to do so. I want to talk to one person so the same message does not change between different people. After all, the HC is the one that we give the most leeway to anyway.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I don't work D1 basketball, but in the D1 games that I have watched, there is a good amount of interaction between the assistants and the officials, particularly during timeouts, and not once have I seen the officials rebuff them simply because they are assistants.

Well every camp I have been to where D1 officials talk, they seemed to advocate a lot of the same feeling I have shared on this issue. Also what you see on TV and what you know is being talked about on the court are two different things. It really is not right for you to say you know what was said unless you are standing so close to court side or have a microphone near the benches. For all you know they might be talking about where they were spending their vacations. Remember at the D1 level the coaches know the official a lot more and there is more professionalism on all sides of that coin. You do not have assistant in most college settings trying to referee because they know that is not a road they want to go down. College coaches and HS coaches are not even in the same stratosphere in the way they behave on a normal situation.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

JRut, in terms of your baseball argument, I do not umpire baseball, so I can't comment on that, nor do I think you can really equate the two sports. However, the point that you made referred to an assistant coach coming out to argue, which, from my point of view is different than say, if there was a play at 1st base and the first base coach, who is right there, started to dispute the call (before the HC eventually came out). Do you immediately dump the 1st base coach just for questioning your call?

Let me make this clear. Baseball and football use a lot of the same philosophies as it relates to handling coaches and players. I have yet to hear an experienced umpire or official not make it clear to younger officials at camps or in locker rooms that AC are basically to be seen and not heard. I also think you are taking what I am saying a little far. I am not talking about basic conversation or even asking a simple question. It would be to my disadvantage to not answer some of their questions if it helps them coach their players. What I will not tolerate is open debate, discussion, ranting and raving over a call they do not like. Also in baseball if a coach comes out of their box yelling about how my call was terrible and the HC is not soon to follow, yes they will get dumped. That almost never happens to me because coaches at the varsity and definitely at the college level know better. Also at the college level (D3, D2, NAIA, JUCO) know not to cross that line. If they do, they know what might happen to them and they often just stay quite. Also this was discussed a few weeks ago at the NCAA Baseball Meeting where Dave Yeast (Coordinator of Umpires for the NCAA) used and example in the College World Series where an umpire dumped the 3rd Base Coach (not the head coach) for arguing an out-safe call. He also commended the umpire for trying to get the coach to back off when he was openly disagreeing with a call.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this, but I just think assistant coaches can be valuable tools for us in terms of game management, and I don't think that dismissing them immediately just because they're assistants is prudent.

I do not think anyone said assistant coaches have no value what so ever. I think what I have said and JR said that the rules do not allow for them to question our calls. Remember the rules outlaw any disrespectful comments or trying to influence an official's decision. We allow the HC rope when they are not being openly disrespectful or constantly questioning everything we do. The other team's AC was not saying a word and did not say a word the entire game that I can recall. Why should I give this AC an ear when the others are doing their job (this is mostly a rhetorical question BTW)? Of course AC has a role, but it is to assist the head guy in coaching their kids during the game. It is not to assist me as an official on what to call because you did not like something. For the record, I do not need to watch for something anyway. I was watching it already; chances are it did not pass the smell test in my judgment to make a call, especially something like hand checking.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

SME -- I agree and I treat every player and table crew and person in general with the same amount of respect they afford me.

So if the scorekeeper tells you he did not like your call, are you going to "give him/her respect" then?

Peace

[mick]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So if the scorekeeper tells you he did not like your call, are you going to "give him/her respect" then?

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by mick

I use assistant coaches if they are nice.
...Shake hands with 'em and everything before the game just like they are regular people.
Sometimes they are the only ones looking when I tell 'em, "First horn."
Sometimes I answer their questions during a dead ball walk-by.
Sometimes I ask them to remind the head coach where the box is.

They don't have poison ivy or sumthin', ... do they?

That's about how I treat em' too Mick. Works for me. Sometimes I even tell them that their team is out of time-outs so I don't interrupt the H/C when he is talking during a time-out. They can be useful little buggers at times.

[Raymond]

I thought a couple of Vicadin and some Yak & Coke would make it go away.

Originally Posted by JRut

You are not the guru of every thing officiating.

No, I'm not, but you seem to be the king of hyperbole'.

I can disagree with something you say.

What a novel concept, I sure haven't experienced that before in my lifetime, neither in the real world nor the military one.

If you have such a great sense of humor (dry or not) maybe you should try using it reading my posts sometimes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought a couple of Vicadin and some Yak & Coke would make it go away. No, I'm not, but you seem to be the king of hyperbole'.

What a novel concept, I sure haven't experienced that before in my lifetime, neither in the real world nor the military one.

If you have such a great sense of humor (dry or not) maybe you should try using it reading my posts sometimes.

Do not blame what I said to you on reading your posts. I made one comment early in this thread and you kept bring up that point. I had long moved on from that point. Maybe you should practice what you preach.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do not blame what I said to you on reading your posts. I made one comment early in this thread and you kept bring up that point. I had long moved on from that point. Maybe you should practice what you preach.

Peace

I irony of some of your posts never ceases to amaze me, even in a drug/alcohol induced state.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I irony of some of your posts never cease to amaze me, even in a drug/alcohol induced state.

This tells me everything I need to know about you.

Just say no.

Peace