Flipping over

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=Splute]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.

Contact occurring after the held ball is called may or may not be incidental, even though the contact might be severe. Judgment call whether it's a foul or not, but if you do call it, it has to be an intentional or flagrant technical foul, by rule and definition(R4-19-1NOTE&4-19-5c).

That's my take on it, News.

[Splute]

[quote=Jurassic Referee][quote=Splute]As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.


Jurassic I respectfully disagree that there is no difference. If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Splute

If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...

Your 2nd statement directly contradicts your 1st statement. One hand can be strong enough to cause a held ball. What if B1's one hand is used to hold the ball against A1's body while A1 has two hands on the ball.

[Splute]

Again a good perspective, but in my mind A1 has possession and position. B1 is taking a dangerous position reaching over A1. It would seem if A1 moved the ball to keep control & possession, then B1 would concurrently cause contact and a violation. So my question would be, at what point do you call the held ball? Is it the split second B1 puts his hand on the ball? I would think most officials tend to let the players attempt to gain control first before stating no one can gain control without undue force, a whistle a held ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

It would seem if A1 moved the ball to keep control & possession, then B1 would concurrently cause contact and a violation. So my question would be, at what point do you call the held ball?

Some points....

- If A1 is moving the ball after B1 put a hand on it, who is really causing the contact now? And...A1 might be able to move the ball, but could they pass, shoot or dribble the ball?
- Don't get too hung up on contact. Read NFHS rule 4-27-2.
- It's always a judgment call. You first have to judge whether it is a held ball or not. Then you have to judge whether the subsequent contact is incidental or not.

[Splute]

I agree it is judgment; all valid points. I looked up the rule you mentioned (4.27.2) but also read 4.27.5 which seems closer to this situation. Your thoughts on that Art.?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

I agree it is judgment; all valid points. I looked up the rule you mentioned (4.27.2) but also read 4.27.5 which seems closer to this situation. Your thoughts on that Art.?

4-27-5 isn't applicable because it refers to contact occurring before the held ball, not after.

Btw, rules are denoted with a dash between them--i.e. Rule 4-27-5. If there are dots between the numbers, that refers to case book play--i.e. something like 4.25.2.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Some points....

- If A1 is moving the ball after B1 put a hand on it, who is really causing the contact now? And...A1 might be able to move the ball, but could they pass, shoot or dribble the ball?
- Don't get too hung up on contact. Read NFHS rule 4-27-2.
- It's always a judgment call. You first have to judge whether it is a held ball or not. Then you have to judge whether the subsequent contact is incidental or not.

However also read NFHS rule 4-27-5. I agree with most of your points JR. If you deem it a held ball then the contact occurs, you go with the held ball. However I have a hard time believing that moving the ball causes undo roughness, and would be more inlcined to use 4-27-5, at least as I read the situation....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Splute

Is it the split second B1 puts his hand on the ball? I would think most officials tend to let the players attempt to gain control first before stating no one can gain control without undue force, a whistle a held ball.

Definitely not the split second.

It's something you have to get a feel for. I still haven't perfected it. Ocassionally I will blow a held ball too early. I'm usually guilty of this if I feel the game is a little rough.

Last night had a GV play-off game between arch rivals. We must have had at least 10 held balls.