Backcourt confusion

[gibb2k5]

Hey all, newcomer to the boards. Been a spectator for the most part but now I have a question I hope you all can help with. A friend and I were discussing a situation he had in game early last week.

A1, from the backcourt, attempts to pass to A2 in the frontcourt under the basket. The pass is high and richochets off the backboard and is slightly deflected by A3 as it enters the backcourt. A1 retrives the pass in the backcourt.

Ruled a backcourt violation.

I thought it should not have been a backcourt violation because it could have been interpruted as a shot attempt and the 10 second count would reset since there is no team control on a shot attempt. I probably would have blown this call on the floor though because it took me awhile to research and come to a determination.

A vetern official told him that a pass from the backcourt touching the backboard constitutes front court possession but we couldn't find this covered in the rule book. Any thoughts?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by gibb2k5

Hey all, newcomer to the boards. Been a spectator for the most part but now I have a question I hope you all can help with. A friend and I were discussing a situation he had in game early last week.

A1, from the backcourt, attempts to pass to A2 in the frontcourt under the basket. The pass is high and richochets off the backboard and is slightly deflected by A3 as it enters the backcourt. A1 retrives the pass in the backcourt.

Ruled a backcourt violation.

I thought it should not have been a backcourt violation because it could have been interpruted as a shot attempt and the 10 second count would reset since there is no team control on a shot attempt. I probably would have blown this call on the floor though because it took me awhile to research and come to a determination.

A vetern official told him that a pass from the backcourt touching the backboard constitutes front court possession but we couldn't find this covered in the rule book. Any thoughts?

See 4-4-5

If you ruled it a pass (which you did), then it's a violation. If you thought it was a shot, then it wouldn't have been a violation.

[SamIAm]

[QUOTE=gibb2k5]...

A1, from the backcourt, attempts to pass to A2 in the frontcourt under the basket. The pass is high and richochets off the backboard and is slightly deflected by A3 as it enters the backcourt. A1 retrives the pass in the backcourt.

Ruled a backcourt violation.

I thought it should not have been a backcourt violation because it could have been interpruted as a shot attempt and the 10 second count would reset since there is no team control on a shot attempt. I probably would have blown this call on the floor though because it took me awhile to research and come to a determination.
...QUOTE]

I will interpret your use of "interpreted" as meaning "judged". Did A1 try for a goal or not. I can't see this as a try unless there are just a few seconds let in the period. I could be influenced by no one being near the goal.

Seems like a BC violation without extenuating circumstances.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tjones1

See 4-4-5

If you ruled it a pass (which you did), then it's a violation. If you thought it was a shot, then it wouldn't have been a violation.

While I agree, it seems inconsistent with the play where A1 dribbles, ends the dribble, throws the ball off his own backboard, catches the ball and dribbles again (legal, even if the throw wasn't judged to be a try).

[gibb2k5]

Could someone quote 4-4-5, I'm at work.

I had this from an e-mail conversation with my friend.

4-12-3 Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

Article 4: While the ball remains live, a loose ball always remains in control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal.

Article 5: Team control does not exist during a jump ball or the touching of a rebound, but is re-established when a player secures control.

The reason I said that it's not a backcourt violation is because a try for goal erases team control and back court/front court. Also, the player deflecting the ball doesn't re-establish team control as in 4-12-5. I guess the real question here is: Does a ball striking the backboard consistute a shot attempt regardless of intent?

We already know that if hits the rim, it's a shot attempt because the shot clock resets, but what about the backboard? I was looking for something definite other then a judgement call on what we guess the player was trying to do.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, it seems inconsistent with the play where A1 dribbles, ends the dribble, throws the ball off his own backboard, catches the ball and dribbles again (legal, even if the throw wasn't judged to be a try).

This case is what makes me believe that a ball striking the backboard is considered a shot regardless of intent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by gibb2k5

A vetern official told him that a pass from the backcourt touching the backboard constitutes front court possession but we couldn't find this covered in the rule book. Any thoughts?

Tjones was answering this question. A pass from the backcourt touching the backboard constitutes frontcourt status, not possession. You only need to establish frontcourt status to have a backcourt violation.

Rule4-4-5-- "A ball which touches the front faces or edges of a backboard is the same as touching the floor inbounds, except when it touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute part of the dribble."

From there, your play is just a judgment call as to whether it's a try or a pass.. You aren't going to get anything definitive in the rules one way or another. If you judge it a try---> legal play. If you judge it as a pass---> backcourt violation.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, it seems inconsistent with the play where A1 dribbles, ends the dribble, throws the ball off his own backboard, catches the ball and dribbles again (legal, even if the throw wasn't judged to be a try).

You can end a dribble and then bounce it off the backboard and start a new dribble? This is legal?

[gibb2k5]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tjones was answering this question. A pass from the backcourt touching the backboard constitutes frontcourt status, not possession. You only need to establish frontcourt status to have a backcourt violation.

Rule4-4-5-- "A ball which touches the front faces or edges of a backboard is the same as touching the floor inbounds, except when it touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute part of the dribble."

From there, your play is just a judgment call as to whether it's a try or a pass.. You aren't going to get anything definitive in the rules one way or another. If you judge it a try---> legal play. If you judge it as a pass---> backcourt violation.

Thanks JR and everyone else, I was hoping it was something more then just a judgement call but with the rules references; it makes sense to me now.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

You can end a dribble and then bounce it off the backboard and start a new dribble? This is legal?

If your own backboard, yes, but if your opponents, no. See case book 4.15.4C.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by gibb2k5

We already know that if hits the rim, it's a shot attempt because the shot clock resets, but what about the backboard? I was looking for something definite other then a judgement call on what we guess the player was trying to do.

While I don't work shot clock games, I thought I recalled that the interpretation was that the shot clock is only reset when the ball hits the rim on a try....not that a ball that hits the rim is a try. I seem to remember seeing a NCAA game where a deflected ball hit the rim shortly before going OOB. The offensive team wanted a shot clock reset, the officials talked to the coach, and there was no reset of the clock. Not definitive but I'm curious to know????

[gibb2k5]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While I don't work shot clock games, I thought I recalled that the interpretation was that the shot clock is only reset when the ball hits the rim on a try....not that a ball that hits the rim is a try. I seem to remember seeing a NCAA game where a deflected ball hit the rim shortly before going OOB. The offensive team wanted a shot clock reset, the officials talked to the coach, and there was no reset of the clock. Not definitive but I'm curious to know????

You're correct, which opens up a new judgement call to weather a ball striking the rim was a try for goal or not.

I assumed that it went both ways, i.e. if a shot that hits the rim resets the clock, then a ball hitting the rim equals a shot.. When you present that scenerio, it makes sense that a deflected ball hitting the rim isn't shot and thus means the clock wouldn't be reset.

California Shot Clock Rules:
The shot clock will be reset when:
Team control is established after the opponents lose possession of the ball.
The mere touching of the ball by an opponent does not reset the shot clock if the same team remains in control of the ball.
A foul occurs, exception: double foul, double technical, simultaneous foul.
A held ball occurs and the defense is awarded the ball through the alternating-possession arrow procedure.
A try for the goal is attempted and the ball hits the rim.
A violation occurs.
Most violations are by the offensive team causing a change of possession and the shot clock is reset.
The defense commits a violation by:

Kicking the ball.
Striking the ball with a fist.
Knocking the ball through the underside of the basket.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by gibb2k5

A vetern official told him that a pass from the backcourt touching the backboard constitutes front court possession but we couldn't find this covered in the rule book. Any thoughts?

What JR wrote plus this:
4-13-1 . . . The frontcourt of a team consists of that part of the court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of the backboard.